Antique Engines and Old Iron
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Antique Engine Community > Multi-Cylinder Stationary Gasoline Engines and Power Units
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Multi-Cylinder Stationary Gasoline Engines and Power Units Waukesha, Buda, Climax, LeRoi and others.

Multi-Cylinder Stationary Gasoline Engines and Power Units

Waukesha FC info needed


this thread has 15 replies and has been viewed 5310 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-13-2013, 03:58:29 PM
Mike in CA Mike in CA is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Los Banos, CA
Posts: 252
Thanks: 249
Thanked 99 Times in 36 Posts
Default Waukesha FC info needed

My dad just bought a waukesha 4 cyl engine and he is looking for some info on it. The tag says its a model F. C. 30 C, 3 1/4 X 4 bore and stroke. The serial number is 477552. The man that my dad bought it from says it came off of a spray rig for an orchard. Dad is looking for some parts for this engine, a fan, and the water outlet that bolts to the head are both broken. Are parts and manuals still available for this engine? Any Idea what year it might be?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 01-13-2013, 07:34:37 PM
dkamp dkamp is offline
eMail NOT Working
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: LeClaire, Iowa, USA
Posts: 1,722
Thanks: 34
Thanked 928 Times in 601 Posts
Default Re: Waukesha FC info needed

Hmmm... can't help you with year or other details, but I'd bet that it looks surprisingly similar to the FC-140 on my '42ish Kohler generator... lemmie guess... flathead four, magneto on the left, intake/exhaust/carb on the right, and water pump down low, in front of the magneto?

They made lots of little flathead fours, like Hercules and Continental...

You may be able to find exact parts... whatever you do, don't discard any of the broken components, as they can be used as patterns to make replacements. The water neck can be fabricated... it won't look quite like a cast original, but it'll put her back in the land of the living...
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to dkamp For This Post:
  #3  
Old 01-13-2013, 10:18:15 PM
Mike in CA Mike in CA is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Los Banos, CA
Posts: 252
Thanks: 249
Thanked 99 Times in 36 Posts
Default Re: Waukesha FC info needed

You are correct the mag is on the left and the carb and intake are on the right. There is no water pump that I can find. The water outlet is below the mag. There is not a starter on the engine but there is a spot on the bell housing with a cover plate where a starter could be installed. The carb is a Stromberg UR 3/4.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-14-2013, 12:27:02 AM
casertractor casertractor is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Milton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,355
Thanks: 25,371
Thanked 5,969 Times in 2,452 Posts
Default Re: Waukesha FC info needed

Early Waukesha model FC's were also used in the Case model R series tractors and power units R,RC,RO,RE,RI, and use eather a Case or a split dorf mag.John
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to casertractor For This Post:
  #5  
Old 01-14-2013, 12:27:29 AM
Heins Heins is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Kit Carson, Colorado, USA
Posts: 2,121
Thanks: 329
Thanked 1,274 Times in 696 Posts
Default Re: Waukesha FC info needed

I have a FC 16 X for parts that might be like yours. Mine is missing the water outlet on the head but I do have the fan. What is broken on the fan, is it the cast piece that bolts to the front of the block that holds the fan hub to tighten the belt? I have that, I could e mail a picture of it if that is what you need.

This engine doesn't have a water pump, it is a thermosiphen [sp].
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Heins For This Post:
  #6  
Old 01-14-2013, 12:59:16 AM
Bud Tierney Bud Tierney is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon USA
Posts: 3,095
Thanks: 232
Thanked 1,243 Times in 969 Posts
Default Re: Waukesha FC info needed

The FC was one of Wauks little workhorse engines, something like 70 or 80 thousand built late 20s/early 30s?? up into late 70s/early 80s?? (got a note somewhere but can't find it) and put into almost everything...which means (1) lots around but (2) lots of people looking for parts...
FC is the basic engine ID, the "30C" and "140" being the works code for the accessories (ign, carb,maybe water outlets etc)...there're works numbers up into the high 200s...
Some had water pumps, some not; some had elec start, some not (see if your flywheel has teeth for elec start)...
Lots of manuals on EBay, BUT these manuals updated every so often, usually shown by "edition #--"; the Wauk Eng Hist Soc (wehs.net) says the latest edition should be used. They have manuals no longer available thru Wauk dealers but no parts.
You might want to check with them to see if a specific manual was issued for the FC sprayer engines. If you buy a manual off Ebay etc, make sure that whatever its title is that it includes full overhaul info, fits and clearances, as some don't...they should also be able to tell if a starter was available for yours, and maybe the Delco/whatever number...
Early FCs had all poured bearings; later ones were inserted, and Wauk made inserted rods to replace the old poured ones...
Assuming no parts are available thru the usual local sources, you might review earlier FC threads here for parts references; arrowengines supports some of the larger Wauks, but I don't know about the FC. There's a pretty good list of the profe$$ional obsolete engine parts dealers on the "Parts and Services" section of aths. Good luck.

---------- Post added at 11:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:40 PM ----------

Just remembered I have an old May 1957 FC parts book--it just shows one fan, listed as "Fan (Thermo Syphon)"...
It shows four different water pumps, but no "fan, Water Pump"...why label the one fan "Thermo Syphon" if the water pump (gear driven) engines used the same one?? If they were different, why aren't two listed??...
Under both "flywheel" and "ring gear" it says "send serial #", so there must've been several...
This parts book isn't complete as it doesn't include a vacuum governor used on FCs in Fairmont Railcars, altho my manifold (center exhaust up) illus shows the (unlabelled) connections...
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Bud Tierney For This Post:
  #7  
Old 01-14-2013, 01:45:21 AM
Mike in CA Mike in CA is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Los Banos, CA
Posts: 252
Thanks: 249
Thanked 99 Times in 36 Posts
Default Re: Waukesha FC info needed

I appreciate the info, Since they seem to have had a long production run maybe parts won't be so hard to find. I will be checking ebay and the swap meets for parts and info. I will have to figure out a radiator and see if the mag still works. I had the engine turning over today.

@heins, Pm sent
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-15-2013, 01:11:36 PM
casertractor casertractor is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Milton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,355
Thanks: 25,371
Thanked 5,969 Times in 2,452 Posts
Default Re: Waukesha FC info needed

I belive somebody mentioned the Waukesha Engine Historical Society.here is a link to their web site.John





www.wehs.net
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to casertractor For This Post:
  #9  
Old 01-16-2013, 11:43:28 AM
dkamp dkamp is offline
eMail NOT Working
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: LeClaire, Iowa, USA
Posts: 1,722
Thanks: 34
Thanked 928 Times in 601 Posts
Default Re: Waukesha FC info needed

Thermosyphon systems come in two varieties... Evaporative (dry), or convective (wet) transfer

First is the evaporative transfer, which is what's found in say... a Fairbanks-Morse ZC-118. In this engine, the radiator is directly above the engine, and runs at essentially zero pressure. When water exceeds 212f, the water evaporates, steam rises into the radiator, where it cools, condenses, and falls back into the hopper... it cools in both the rising, and falling direction, and as long as the radiator can keep up with load, the engine will stay right at 212F.

The second is convective or 'wet' transfer. This is where a system has a radiator ABOVE the engine block, and the radiator is filled to the top. As water in the engine warms, it's density decreases ( water, in liquid state, warm expands slightly when warm, contracts slightly when cool). This causes cold water to settle to the block, while warm water rises into the radiator. As the water in the radiator cools, it contracts, hence, becomes heavier, and falls to the block.

Both concepts work, however, they work slowly, as the coolant and radiator's materials' coefficient of thermal transfer is the limiting factor... heat passes through a given material, at a constant rate.

In an attempt to make the thermosyphon cooling system work faster, there's three things one can do- first is reduce the flow restriction between the hot and cold sides, second is to make the hot and cold sides distribute evenly (so there's no extreme hot or cold spots in the engine or radiator), and finally, increase the temperature differential between the hot and cold sides.

The latter, frequently happens when the engine is put under substantial load... and unfortunately, it leads to boiling on the aforementioned hotter surfaces... and where boiling is occuring, the amount of coolant contact is reduced, which creates a viscious cycle of heating and boiling... and likewise, as the steam found it's way to the top of the radiator, the LIQUID in the radiator gets forced to the bottom, so the amount of cooling capacity falls drastically (a given volume of liquid water, carries substantially more thermal transfer capacity than the same volume of steam). To combat this, manufacturers tended to made tall, skinny radiators... and would NEVER make a wide, cross-flow radiator like we have today.

So to make the temperature differential greater WITHOUT boiling, the basic idea is to move more air through the radiator... a more aggressive fan.

After switching to a circulatory pump system, a whole mess of these dependancies just plain vanished. A more compact radiator, and less aggressive fan was required... and the side-benefit, is that the fan draws less engine power (more flywheel HP) and need not turn as fast (quiet). Another manufacturing benefit (but somewhat to our chagrin), is that the engine design and block casting need not be so well made... positive flow overcame restrictions in the block, forced coolant through hot spots, and allowed the engine to maintain effective cooling even if the head gasket leaked a fair amount. While the industrial engine manufacturers stuck to their guns, the automotive manufacturers saw this as an opportunity to save manufacturing costs... so no good deed goes unpunished, right?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to dkamp For This Post:
  #10  
Old 12-08-2013, 07:34:43 AM
ncmercer ncmercer is offline
eMail NOT Working
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Catawba, North Carolina
Posts: 60
Thanks: 0
Thanked 27 Times in 15 Posts
Default Re: Waukesha FC info needed

Hello. Found this old thread. Just bought a case RC w an FK Waukesha. Looks like no water pump on it either. So how can I tell if the engine is getting cooled properly assuming it has the thermosyphoning system?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ncmercer For This Post:
  #11  
Old 12-08-2013, 01:08:30 PM
oldtractors's Avatar
oldtractors oldtractors is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Iowa Falls, Iowa, USA
Posts: 1,620
Thanks: 1,716
Thanked 1,891 Times in 773 Posts
Default Re: Waukesha FC info needed

You can usually see the water circulating in the radiator once it warms up. Also the hot water should work its way down the radiator. If it doesn't work, I would think that the radiator would be cold and the engine really hot. I really haven't had much problems with a thermosyphen system if the radiator isn't plugged. If you replace the coolant, make sure you premix the coolant before you pour it in. If you have a layer of antifreeze and a layer of water in the radiator it won't flow properly.
__________________
Jim Evans
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to oldtractors For This Post:
  #12  
Old 12-08-2013, 02:27:55 PM
Bud Tierney Bud Tierney is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon USA
Posts: 3,095
Thanks: 232
Thanked 1,243 Times in 969 Posts
Default Re: Waukesha FC info needed

From what I've read in these forums and seen listed in old parts catalogs a few of the RCs had the FK, later replaced by the FC...
An old Wauk handbook lists the FK and the FC in the same spec column...
A 44 Sealed Power catalog lists the FC, FCL, FK and FKJ as all sharing the same ring/piston/pin assembly, AND it shows two factory duplicate types: Concave head piston and flat head piston (per that catalog both pistons take same ring/pin/bushing set)...
Under the valve section it lists FC, FCL, FCS, FK, FKJ, FL, FLJ, FS and FSJ all using the same valves, AND again showing two factory types: drilled stem for pin type keeper and stem with two keeper grooves, each type using its own set of guides, springs, keepers.
Bearings are more complicated: a 51 Fed-Mog bearing catalog lists EARLY FC, FCS, FK, FL with poured rods and one set of mains...
Wauk issued new rods for the FC with insert bearings, but don't know if they'd fit the FK....
That FM catalog then lists those four and others, LATE models, with inserts AND exchange rods (???) AND a different set of mains...
All of that should be verified with the Wauk Eng Hist Soc (wehs.net) before looking for parts; with your engine serial # they'll at least be able to tell what it was when it left the factory...Good luck.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Bud Tierney For This Post:
  #13  
Old 12-08-2013, 09:22:12 PM
Heins Heins is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Kit Carson, Colorado, USA
Posts: 2,121
Thanks: 329
Thanked 1,274 Times in 696 Posts
Default Re: Waukesha FC info needed

ncmercer, as long as you have water in the engine and radiator, the engine won't be too hot.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-09-2013, 01:05:54 AM
dkamp dkamp is offline
eMail NOT Working
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: LeClaire, Iowa, USA
Posts: 1,722
Thanks: 34
Thanked 928 Times in 601 Posts
Default Re: Waukesha FC info needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by heins View Post
ncmercer, as long as you have water in the engine and radiator, the engine won't be too hot.
There isn't a more correct statement than this.

As long as there's water in the engine and radiator, it will never be over 212F.

Note that the evaporative system DEPENDS on the water boiling, and steam rising to the condenser... the thermosyphon engine, unlike modern forced-flow cooling systems, were designed from the git-go to cause cool water to fall to the bottom, and warm to rise to the top. The radiator's positioning, and the shape of the water exit from the cylinder head are very intentional.

By the way... submariners refer to 'thermoclines'... go swimming in a pond that is 'spring-fed', and you'll learn rapidly how thermosyphon systems do what they do.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-09-2013, 11:25:13 AM
Heins Heins is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Kit Carson, Colorado, USA
Posts: 2,121
Thanks: 329
Thanked 1,274 Times in 696 Posts
Default Re: Waukesha FC info needed

If you think about it, hit and miss engines with water hoppers that boil while running is the same thing. As long as you keep water in them, they won't get any hotter than the temperture at which water boils.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-09-2013, 09:35:40 PM
ncmercer ncmercer is offline
eMail NOT Working
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Catawba, North Carolina
Posts: 60
Thanks: 0
Thanked 27 Times in 15 Posts
Default Re: Waukesha FC info needed

All good information. Thanks. I feel more confident running her now. By the way, I grew up on a spring fed lake, and yes the deeper you dive the cooler the water.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
Waukesha 30GLB or 80GLB info needed Marshall Henderson Multi-Cylinder Stationary Gasoline Engines and Power Units 8 10-31-2011 11:22:48 PM
Waukesha Gaskets NEEDED wilson Ross Multi-Cylinder Stationary Gasoline Engines and Power Units 2 12-12-2010 06:50:11 PM
Waukesha FC Starter Spacer Needed Larry Wolden Multi-Cylinder Stationary Gasoline Engines and Power Units 1 07-14-2009 12:28:56 AM
starter help needed for waukesha ick 170-d partcat37 Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion 0 10-28-2006 10:51:08 AM
Waukesha decal pic needed Marv in Minn Antique Steel Wheel Tractors - Old Iron Lugs and Cleats 0 09-02-2006 09:44:25 AM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:17:56 PM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2019 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277