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Fuels and Alternative Fuels Materials or substances that can be used as a fuel, waste oils, vegetable oils or animal fats, which can be used alone, or blended with fossil fuels.

Fuels and Alternative Fuels

Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles


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  #1  
Old 05-08-2013, 02:18:32 AM
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Default Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

Detroit says it will ruin your engine. The EPA says it's safe. Farmers say it's better than foreign oil. Oil companies say it's more expensive than gasoline. But as Washington looks to compel refiners to blend more and more ethanol into gasoline, consumers are still left with the basic and critical question -- how much ethanol is safe to put in their cars?

Automakers warn the government's ethanol mandate could damage vehicles if it continues to grow. "We just feel that it is not safe for the consumer. It's not safe for their engines," said Charles Drevna, executive president of American Fuel & Petrochemical Manufacturers.

The questions about ethanol arise after Congress first mandated it in 2007. Ninety-six percent of gasoline sold in the U.S. is now 10 percent ethanol, a high-octane fuel derived from corn. But under that bill and rules favored by the Environmental Protection Agency, refiners are now being forced to blend up to 15 percent ethanol into gasoline sold at stations around the U.S.

The auto industry, though, says E-15 -- as the blend is known -- corrodes pumps, fuel lines and injectors. And manufacturers say they won't cover damages caused by the higher blend.
The American Automobile Association agrees.
"Ninety-five percent of today's cars are not suited for E-15 based on what people who make those cars say," said AAA CEO Robert Darbelnet.

The ethanol lobby claims automakers and refiners are overreacting.

"E-15 has been sold in this country for the past nine months with no issues whatsoever. This is a lot of hysteria that's being driven by the oil companies," said Bob Dinneen, head of the Renewable Fuels Association.

While there have been no issues reported so far, the new blend has only been sold in a handful of stations in the Midwest. But refiners are mandated to use 13.8 billion gallons ethanol this year requiring the 15 percent blend. The EPA says it is safe for cars built after 2001, but acknowledges it is inappropriate for boats and small motors, including lawnmowers and chainsaws.

Automakers advise new owners not to fill up on E-15 and say doing so may violate warranty terms, leaving customers to pay costly repair bills. Toyota and Lexus even placed warning labels on gas caps and owner's manual instructions caution not to use E-15.

"We think ethanol is a pretty good product, up to a point," said Drevna. "But when Congress mandates such massive quantities that we can't put into the fuel system, that the autos and the lawnmowers people and the marine manufacturers are saying 'We won't warranty, we won't put this in our engines, there is a problem'."

Ethanol supporters dispute that and claim studies back them up. Ethanol blends of 25 percent have been used for years in Brazil with no ill effects on the same cars sold in the U.S.
"We support what the EPA did because we know that E-15 is safe for the vehicles for which they have approved," said Dinneen."Let the marketplace decide. Let consumers that have a newer vehicle, that want to use E-15, give them the choice. If they want to use E-15 because it is lower cost, because it's domestically produced, because it's the only thing we have that's going to reduce greenhouse gases, then they ought to have that choice."

After a lengthy comment period, the EPA is expected to decide soon whether or not to relax the blend mandate. Some lawmakers are considering similar legislation should the EPA fail to do so. Right now, it is a lobbying war pitting farmers against oil refiners and automakers.

"Look, this is pretty simple," said Dinneen. "It's about a battle for the barrel. Ethanol, renewable fuels, have been phenomenally successful over the last several years, and we are now 10 percent of the U.S. motor fuel market. And the refiners are saying, 'no more'. They don't want to see E-15 succeed. I think the American public still understands the value in reducing our dependence on imported oil and seeing more domestic renewable fuels used."
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:11:00 AM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

May corn futures are at $6.756 per bushel and September futures are at $5.516.
Using corn at that price for making fuel is insane.
Just now I went surfing looking for unbiased FACTS.........I could find only one FACT "they" agree upon: E85 (different subject I know) has 25% less energy than a gallon of gasoline.
What I THINK are facts that are overlooked in the production of ethanol is that ALL of the inputs involved in raising a bushel of corn are not entered into the equation.
The production of ethanol is quickly becoming the new Industrial Complex in that there is such a huge investment in infrastructure and labor necessary to run it plus producers who have come to depend on ethanol to keep corn prices high that it will cause its own depression if the "system" is interrupted in any substantial way.
Is every gas station in the country going to be required to install yet MORE underground tanks and pumps to dispense yet another grade of fuel?
I think we all know the answer to that one.......
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:43:50 AM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

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Originally Posted by Craig A View Post

What I THINK are facts that are overlooked in the production of ethanol is that ALL of the inputs involved in raising a bushel of corn are not entered into the equation.

Is every gas station in the country going to be required to install yet MORE underground tanks and pumps to dispense yet another grade of fuel?
I think we all know the answer to that one.......
That, has always been my main (and often only) complaint about ethanol, is the cost of growing and processing the corn to make it with.

I hadn't thought of the gas station/tanks situation until you mentioned it there, but IF that ends up being the case, it could easily spell the end for even more small town privately owned stations that can't justify the cost of putting in another tank. Then you lose more independant stations and give the big corporations even more of a monopoly for controling the ever rising price of gas.

As far as using the E-15 though, I think everyone knows my views on it by now. Having routinely run the E-10 which some people on here keep claiming is actually Up To 27% alcohol, and occasionally running E-25 and a few Partial Tanks of E-85 mixed in with the E-10 or E-25, I doubt I will have Any Problems At All running E-15 If/When it becomes available locally.

But, I do agree, it should be the Consumers Choice, and NOT be Mandated by anyone.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:13:34 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

why doesn't anyone talk about the millions of gallons of rain run off full of pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizers. we can breath dirty air, although not good, but we can not drink poison water. poison water is killing us where we live by DuPont dumping c-8 into our waterways and into our air through the smokestacks.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:20:53 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

My understanding (could be wrong) is that there is one tank with ethanol, one with gasoline. Blended at the pump.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:33:09 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

Yep boys let's do whatever we can to drive down the price paid to American Farmers for corn and send all the money we can to towelhead terrorist in the middle east.

$6.50 for corn paid to American Farmers who use machinery made in America to produce corn for fuel to be used by Americans, what a crazy idea. Let's just keep sending our money overseas instead.

Liberals just can't understand you can't keep a high living standard in a country that imports everything!
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:50:58 PM
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Question Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

How many years in a row can you plant corn on the same ground though ?

Don't they have to rotate crops once in a while ?

I'm not a farmer, so I don't know, but locally, I used to see the crops rotated routinely, and now it's mostly corn, year after year after year. If they keep doing that, how many years can they go before they don't get a crop at all after spending all the time and money to plant and cultivate it ?

And what does it do to the prices of everything else that the farmers quit planting but we still need ?

Where do we get the other crops from if all the farmers are growing is corn for ethanol ?

I will continue to burn Ethanol myself, whether it's E-10 or E-15 and occasionally E-25 makes no differnece to me, as long as it's cheaper than non-ethanol. But if the price of corn makes Ethanol more expensive, then I will go back to regular unleaded.
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Old 05-08-2013, 01:00:54 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

I am not sure it is ok to post copy written material, so I will cite sources. See UPI.com April 10, 2013, US News & World Report March 20, 2013 issue, Energy Tomorrow.org for details.

Due to fracking, shale extraction and other hi tech extraction methods, for the first time in 20 years, US oil production will exceed imports! Predictions are by 2014, US oil production will be several million barrels per day higher than imports. US oil reserves are the highest they have been in over 30 years!

As the tighter government mandated fuel economy and energy efficiency standards take effect, predictions are that the US will use less fossil fuel.

Right now, domestic oil and gas producers export to the world market.
Far east nations pay higher prices than the local market, so US produced fuels are sold overseas.

I am not sure that we need to take food and use it as fuel, when many people in the world do not have enough to eat.
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Old 05-08-2013, 01:40:09 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

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Predictions are by 2014, US oil production will be several million barrels per day higher than imports. US oil reserves are the highest they have been in over 30 years!
And yet, the prices keep going higher and higher because of the false supply and demand issue that they create by exporting so much of it. Last year, or maybe the last two years now, gas was the highest grossing export of anything shipped out of this Country.

If they cut down on the fuel exports, we could probably be energy independant by 2014, but instead, I'm sure they will continue to ship more and more fuel out of the Country just to keep inflating the prices because 'we don't have enough to go around'.
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:57:12 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

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Originally Posted by Rod Fielder View Post
why doesn't anyone talk about the millions of gallons of rain run off full of pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizers. we can breath dirty air, although not good, but we can not drink poison water. poison water is killing us where we live by DuPont dumping c-8 into our waterways and into our air through the smokestacks.
Why doesn't anyone talk about the millions of gallons of rain run off from CITIES full of pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers because Bob needs to have his lawn greener than Herb next door, or Katie hates the little red bugs that are on her flowers, or the local city pumps millions of gallons of RAW SEWAGE a day into the river because their treatment pumps broke due to improper maintenance, or....

I could go on, but the point is the farmer is the least of your problems. How many more millions of people would go hungry without modern farming techniques?

Frank W. (JR)
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:38:31 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

How many more millions of people would go hungry without modern farming techniques?





that's the exact point here. how many go hungry because of ethanol???

not one person on stak is against the farmer. this is a government mandate issue.
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:13:45 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

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Originally Posted by OTTO-Sawyer View Post
And yet, the prices keep going higher and higher because of the false supply and demand issue that they create by exporting so much of it. Last year, or maybe the last two years now, gas was the highest grossing export of anything shipped out of this Country.

If they cut down on the fuel exports, we could probably be energy independant by 2014, but instead, I'm sure they will continue to ship more and more fuel out of the Country just to keep inflating the prices because 'we don't have enough to go around'.
Yes, we could, but the mandate to company management is to make the most profit possible. That means selling product for as much as possible, wherever. There is NO loyalty to USA or citizens.
Much of China's huge population has recently obtained the financial means to purchase automobiles and other goods. China needs huge amounts of oil to fill these vehicles. Projections are China will soon be the largest oil consumer in the world.
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:26:13 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

If ethanol is so good, why does the government have to mandate it's use? In my opinion when government or so called experts tell you what to do, you're likely better off doing the opposite.

Bill
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:46:34 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

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Originally Posted by Rod Fielder View Post

not one person on stak is against the farmer. this is a government mandate issue.
^.......That

And beyond that.......I have not experienced one seconds worth of trouble with 10% ethanol fuel in anything I own from my 1919 Model T to our '2008 Dodge car.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:32:28 AM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

Absolutely, we have not had problems with our cars with 10% on the road. The only time I had any problems was filling my V10 Ford in Chicago and they had put E-85 in the storage tank instead of regular gas. Got to Bloomington and had to change the fuel filter, no more problems.

We have had some problems with the soy diesel in the farm equipment. Fuel filters clogging after a day (if that long), fuel pumps seizing due to lubrication issues and black slime and rust in the fuel tanks. The first batch worked excellently with no problems, then they changed the formula and have had continuous problems ever since. If they had stuck with the first formula we would be buying bio fuels for the farm today.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:15:15 AM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

The problem comes when you add it to an old fuel system that has varnish from before . It turns the old gunk to glue and makes lots of problems, filter screens, fuel pump rubber, valves, carbs, on and on. Last summer we had at least 6 vehicles with major problems. Including one engine that was running perfect and had a valve stem seize and bend with in twenty minutes of running. In short if your gonna run the stuff, don't add it unless u know your system is cleaned, don't keep it sitting in the tank, add fuel conditioner, and if u suspect anything stop drain it and don't run it. One thing I did find out is that the only thing that touches that shellac that forms is windex, it dissolves it fast.

---------- Post added at 08:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 AM ----------

The older engines with more clearances and wear handle it ok but stuff in good shape with no room for gunk has issues. The rubber parts and small screens deffinatly suffer from this new fuel.

---------- Post added at 09:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 AM ----------

It also has a short shelf life and absorbs moisture faster, a bit if kerosene mixed into 5 gallons of ethanol seems to help too, like maybe a quart poured into the gas. Here in Canada the high octane gas at some stations has no ethanol , the FAA banned ethanol from aircraft engines for a reason , it makes them quit.
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:25:57 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

I think that everyone should have the choice to buy gas without ethanol and also have the right to buy gas with ethanol. it should be a choice made by us, not mandated by a corrupt government. this is a corporate game pushed hard by lobbyists. billions of dollars on the line
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Old 05-09-2013, 01:34:25 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

The way I see it, the EPA is determined to get older vehicles off of the road at any cost. They mandate ULSD, knowing that it will reduce the life of older diesel injection pumps. They mandate enthanol additives to "gasoline", also knowing that the makers of older "gasoline" powered vehicles made no provision for that. Frankly, I see it as an intentional ploy to force purchase of newer vehicles.

So what does a resourceful person do? With this "gasoline" I have no idea. But the diesel guys simply buy ULSD, then add the needed lubricants to it so injection pumps last as they should. It is a pretty safe bet that the mix some of them use makes good old 1000ppm S diesel seem like Kool-Aid.
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:02:48 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

Did you guys see where "Shell" is saying there Ethanol is made from cane sugar?
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:51:25 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

I've read on other forums that some guys swear by adding Marvel Mystery Oil to the gas.
I've used it mostly for cleaning up engines on my new purchases to loosen old crud so I can get rid of it at the first oil change.
But I've read about it too many times to not believe there is something to it and now use it in every fill.
At the shop I had a customer (still is a customer) who uses a DC Case on a regular basis on his farm.
He said that engine WILL NOT run right without it so.......
I guess it is indeed a "Mystery" but who am I to argue with success.......
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