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Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion

Hit & Miss Invented?


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  #1  
Old 03-06-2014, 11:19:05 AM
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Default Hit & Miss Invented?

Anyone know which engine was the first to employ the latch up of the exhaust valve for the Hit and Miss mode? When was this first implemented?
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Old 03-06-2014, 11:56:23 AM
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

That's a good question. Fairbanks Morse would be an early example dating back to at least 1895
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Old 03-06-2014, 12:51:55 PM
JSWithers JSWithers is offline
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

I'm pretty sure Otto was long before that. Jeff W
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Old 03-06-2014, 01:01:49 PM
George Best George Best is offline
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jswithers View Post
I'm pretty sure Otto was long before that. Jeff W
Jeff,

The question was first to hold the exhaust valve open for the hit&miss governing.

Most Otto's I'm familiar with controlled the intake valve and coasted against compression.
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Old 03-06-2014, 01:24:25 PM
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

Tangye was doing in the late 1890s with their oil engines.
Not sure how far back they went though...

**Greg J may know of a pair of White n Middletons in California that lock the exhaust out.
They're said to be the only ones that do it.**
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Old 03-06-2014, 01:42:43 PM
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

Second generation Crossley Otto Langen engines starting from from 1872 used a governor latch system to prevent the engine from cycling
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Old 03-06-2014, 02:46:47 PM
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Grenning View Post
Second generation Crossley Otto Langen engines starting from from 1872 used a governor latch system to prevent the engine from cycling
Wayne brings up a great engine but still TECHNICALLY doesn't latch the exhaust...

Did any of the early Charters latch the exhaust??

J
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Old 03-06-2014, 09:57:29 PM
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

Father did a little research tonight and it seems that the earliest Tangyes oil engines (like the one Peter Knight sold) lock the exhaust open. The gas version of that engine was being sold in 1893 and I believe the oil was available around the same time.
It's of particular interest given that you want to keep the hot bulb HOT and pulling cool air in while it misses was counterproductive to combustion...

**Apparently the oil engine patent wasn't issued until 1896**

Anyone know the details on the Charters?
I'm pretty sure the one at CPM doesn't lock the exhaust, but can't speak for the others.

Last edited by Sad Iron; 03-07-2014 at 10:11:56 AM.
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Old 03-07-2014, 12:10:32 AM
JSWithers JSWithers is offline
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Best View Post
Jeff,

The question was first to hold the exhaust valve open for the hit&miss governing.

Most Otto's I'm familiar with controlled the intake valve and coasted against compression.
We have an otto that controls the exhaust valve. About 1897. Called a special electric. Also has ported exhaust. It however rolls against compression every revolution not every other like most otto's.And most otto's control the gas valve not the intake valve. The intake valves on most are atmospheric. We do have at least one that does have a powered intake valve.

We had a single flywheel Charter that we estimated to be 1893. Missing parts. Hot tube. Predecessor to the fairbanks-morse. We had a 3hp N fairbanks that was about 1895. It's still at rollag.

---------- Post added at 12:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 AM ----------

And you're right, I misread the question.
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Old 03-07-2014, 07:37:15 AM
JSWithers JSWithers is offline
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

The Charter we had was the one flywheel style with the governor on the end of the crankshaft. This style engine may actually have governed like an Otto by controlling the fuel.
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Old 03-07-2014, 11:45:52 AM
Don Selmer Don Selmer is offline
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

The question is: or should be ? Is the engines that run against compression (governed by a fuel valve allowing/injecting fuel into the system) considered hit & miss? Engines such as ( but limited to ) FOOS, Lamberts, Ottos, Springfields. I say they do because it does coast (even against compression) if it reaches it's governed speed. Locks out the fuel supply until it needs it.

Last edited by Don Selmer; 03-07-2014 at 04:05:01 PM.
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Old 03-07-2014, 11:50:52 AM
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

I believe the Pacific Gas Engines manufactured in San Francisco in 1890-91 had exhaust latch up detents for their stationary models. I don't believe they were the first, since they didn't patent the idea.
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Old 03-07-2014, 11:51:00 AM
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

It would seem to me that any engine that uses any mechanism to interrupt the normal firing cycle when it reaches speed by means of some type of "lockout mechanism" would be hit and miss. I am not talking about in the carb/mixer. I hope this is understandable.
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Old 03-07-2014, 11:58:50 AM
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jswithers View Post
The Charter we had was the one flywheel style with the governor on the end of the crankshaft. This style engine may actually have governed like an Otto by controlling the fuel.
The type Charter you mention was the earliest style built by Charter. I have the oldest known Charter, SN 303 and it is exactly as you describe, one flywheel with the Governor located on the crankshaft. It does not latch out the exhaust valve but achieves the hit and miss cycle by cutting off the fuel injection (somewhat similar to an Otto)

On an interesting note, I've owned this engine for many years and got it from a guy named Withers in Osakis, MN....
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Old 03-07-2014, 01:45:46 PM
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lcjudge View Post
On an interesting note, I've owned this engine for many years and got it from a guy named Withers in Osakis, MN....
Funny thing about that engine. Dad had a lot of rare and early engines in his 50+ years of collecting. Very few engines came from the local area. It seams even in the early day of collecting he/we always traveled to get engines. Even common engines. I asked dad about this and he explained that a lot of engines in our area were scrapped because of easy access. And he thought or area wasn't old enough (settled) to have anything very old. This engine was found near the end of his collecting career, is in the group of oldest engines he ever owned, and was found in his back yard...rural Osakis. I guess that proved him wrong. I hope you are enjoying the engine and I hope to see it running one day. I'm sure that was the only one of that style he ever had. We had one that was a 2 flywheel N fairbanks style that went to south Carolina. Mid to late 70's. Jeff W

---------- Post added at 01:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:42 PM ----------

We delivered that one to Portland, Indiana show. The engine we brought back home (a very early 15hp Famous) did not make it home in one piece.
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Old 03-07-2014, 02:24:48 PM
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

The 1892-3 1/3 HP Inverted Otto latched the exhaust valve.
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Old 03-07-2014, 02:28:58 PM
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jswithers View Post
Funny thing about that engine. Dad had a lot of rare and early engines in his 50+ years of collecting. Very few engines came from the local area. It seams even in the early day of collecting he/we always traveled to get engines. Even common engines. I asked dad about this and he explained that a lot of engines in our area were scrapped because of easy access. And he thought or area wasn't old enough (settled) to have anything very old. This engine was found near the end of his collecting career, is in the group of oldest engines he ever owned, and was found in his back yard...rural Osakis. I guess that proved him wrong. I hope you are enjoying the engine and I hope to see it running one day. I'm sure that was the only one of that style he ever had. We had one that was a 2 flywheel N fairbanks style that went to south Carolina. Mid to late 70's. Jeff W

---------- Post added at 01:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:42 PM ----------

We delivered that one to Portland, Indiana show. The engine we brought back home (a very early 15hp Famous) did not make it home in one piece.

I remember Jim telling me it came from just a few miles from his shop. I remember the 15HP Famous situation. I think the ball on the truck sheared off and the truck went down the interstate and the trailer went down the median. Jim said he looked back and one of the flywheel rims was in the median catching up with him!
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Old 03-07-2014, 03:27:00 PM
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
The 1892-3 1/3 HP Inverted Otto latched the exhaust valve.
It certainly looks like a latch hit and miss. That part does not look like our 1893 inverted Schleicher.

lcjudge I remember it was about 1am and I felt the truck jerk. I asked dad what happened and he said we lost our trailer. I looked back and saw sparks flying. In the daylight there was an upside down trailer, a wrecked IHC, and several small domestics strewn everywhere. Broke the rims right off the hubs on the famous.
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Old 03-07-2014, 03:42:38 PM
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

I remember Jim Withers telling that story to me about the 15 h.p. IHC portable. He said "he never knew there was that many State Troopers in Black River Falls, Wisconsin"

Last edited by Don Selmer; 03-07-2014 at 04:01:59 PM.
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Old 03-07-2014, 04:29:01 PM
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Default Re: Hit & Miss Invented?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Selmer View Post
I remember Jim Withers telling that story to me about the 15 h.p. IHC portable. He said "he never knew there was that many State Troopers in Black River Falls, Wisconsin"
Then add insult to injury the state of Wisconsin sent him a bill for median repair.

And it was a full sub base famous with square hubs. I believe the engine went to Harold Ottaway. I don't know what happened to it after that.

Thanks guys. Jeff W
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