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Fuels and Alternative Fuels Materials or substances that can be used as a fuel, waste oils, vegetable oils or animal fats, which can be used alone, or blended with fossil fuels.

Fuels and Alternative Fuels

Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?


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  #1  
Old 05-17-2011, 09:37:02 AM
TheEngineGal TheEngineGal is offline
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Default Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cell things work? They say the that they give you better gas milage. Now, I would maybe think its a scam, but at a show once this guy had them in his Model A, and he told me about them and swore they worked. Has anyone else used these?
Here's a link to it:

http://www.ecrater.com/p/3398098/com...ator-fuel-cell
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Old 05-17-2011, 10:19:38 AM
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Default Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

Gal:

In a word, no.

The process of making hydrogen out of water using electricity (or chemical means) uses a lot more energy than it produces.

Scam!

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Old 05-17-2011, 10:29:21 AM
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Default Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

I know of a local over the road trucking company that purchased several units and installed them on their big trucks. Short story the units are all in the trash pile now.
Merton
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Old 05-17-2011, 10:51:57 AM
Candy T. Candy T. is offline
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Default Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

Hi EngineGal,

My Dad uses them in his Ford truck and travels over the country. He is the one that got my family started on them. They do work! The gas mileage did increased. I wouldn't claim by leaps and bounds though. But, every mile counts these days.

When my husband installed one on his truck, you could hear the difference right off. The old truck ran smooth.

The trick is using the right wiring and mix of baking soda and water. The more hydro. gens you add the better the mileage. We installed an on/off switch with a indicator light in the dashboard of the truck. Got to have a safety switch.

Go for it if you have an older vehicle. I wouldn't try it on a newer one with all of their computer chips and sensor readings though. It might make your warranty null and void.

Good Luck!
Candy
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Old 05-17-2011, 10:56:21 AM
TheEngineGal TheEngineGal is offline
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Default Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

Yeah, I guess it wouldn't be a great idea for a newer truck even if they did work. I keep forgetting about all the stupid computer stuff in them now. Thanks for the tips yall.
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Old 05-17-2011, 04:28:49 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

I looked into these types of systems a few years ago, have not tried one. One the one hand I see it has potential, on the other hand I think it would need more refinement to achieve that potential. The first problem is a lack of metering of the HHO gas(fuel), all the units I've seen are just a hose dumping the HHO into the intake. Any modern engine has O2 sensors, the O in the HHO gas will cause the sensor to detect a higher level of O and therefore computer ADDS more fuel(gas/diesel), thereby lowering mileage. Some folks have added a rheostat type control to fool the O2 sensor but without a direct readout showing what happening in the mix it just looks like an accident waiting to happen, example would be your cruising down the highway with the HHO generator cranking away so your turn fuel delivery down by fooling O2 sensor, if your HHO generator stops working you now start running lean, happily oblivious to the fact your cooking your engine. The additional load on the alternator needs to be factored in too, some good studies on this would be nice to see. And a mason jar HHO generator is just a tad questionable too, not saying they won't work, it just lacks structural integrity.

Some really good testing is needed on this subject.
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Old 05-17-2011, 05:03:22 PM
Tim0477 Tim0477 is offline
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Default Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

It takes mechanical energy from the engine to spin the alternator which converts that energy into electrical energy to separate the hydrogen and oxygen (chemical energy). This hydrogen and oxygen is then fed into the engine in hopes of producing mechanical energy again. The way I see it is that if each energy conversion was 100% efficient, the best you could hope for is to break even. Of course 100% efficiency is impossible, so I don't see how this could improve anything. I say scam.

Tim
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Old 05-17-2011, 08:56:16 PM
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Default Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

Saw a video on a local TV station where the generator used a pulsed (oscillating?) current and greatly improved Hydrogen production. Looked like a simple circuit board to control it. If you saw the characters that made the video you know it had to be simple...
Can't find it off hand, but here is the TV station web site. Pretty minimal information.
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Old 05-17-2011, 10:35:57 PM
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Default Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

These will not produce enough fuel to even run a 10 HP engine.
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Old 05-18-2011, 12:43:04 AM
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Default Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

Whoops! Forgot the link.
http://www.knlc.tv/test2/knlc-channel-24-2/
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Old 05-18-2011, 09:32:35 AM
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Default Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

I read an article that pretty much debunked the whole mess. The author demonstrated through actual math that the amount of electricity required to separate the hydrogen and the oxygen in any amount to actually be useful in reducing the amount of fuel required to power an engine far exceeded the amperage commonly available in most automotive electrical systems. The fuel savings achieved by most of these systems is derived from the fact that most involve installing some kind of resistor on the air intake sensor when you are installing the kit they provide. This resistor or whatever device they send tricks the on board computer into reading the outside air temperature into something that is far different than it actually is, like a 100 degrees hotter or colder or something like that. The computer responds by leaning out the air fuel mixture to adjust to what it "thinks" the air temperature is instead of what it really is. So the motorist starts getting much better fuel mileage and they believe that it is all due to the hydrogen generator. This all works well and good until the engine gets into a situation where it starts detonating due to lack of fuel and damages the engine. I think this article was in the magazine Motor Age, had it saved for a while.
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Old 05-19-2011, 03:39:17 PM
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Default Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

I think it would be much simpler to just go with the 'old school' water injector systems used with high compression engines to control detination without backing off the timing...

That way you're injecting both the hydrogen AND extra oxygen along with cooling the intake charge making it denser and allowing more air/fuel mixture into the combustion chamber making more power which means you can back off the throttle a little there by using less fuel.
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Old 05-19-2011, 08:25:11 PM
Steve Webre Steve Webre is offline
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Default Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

Nope. Regardless of claims by sellers and buyers, it's a scam. Save your money.
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Old 05-20-2011, 05:47:08 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

OTTO
The HHO generators are dumping both the H&O into engine, I've heard several people with these claim they get better mileage, but then people claimed that with fuel line magnets too. I've seen more than a few "mileage enhancers" over the years, even tryed a few, did not see an improvement on any of them.

Here are the ones I remember, fuel line magnets, Holley Water injector, the platinum liquid bubbler thingy, tried the first 2, but not the third.

Can anyone remember other "fuel saving" devices?
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Old 05-20-2011, 06:05:47 PM
Jerry Christiansen Jerry Christiansen is offline
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Default Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

Read Post #7 by Tim0477,

The energy released when Oxygen and Hydorgen form chemical bonds is exactly the same as the energy needed to split the water molecule in to Oxygen and Hydorgen. In a PERFECT setting, it is break even deal.

There are many ways to state the Two Laws of Thermodynamics, here is one:
#1 You can't break even.

#2 Law #1 is being very generous.

Every time energy changes form, some of the energy is converted into unusable heat. (Why do you suppose our cars have radiators.) Using the electricity produces by the alternator of the car to power the car will NOT work. No, a propeller on the roof driving an alternator will not work either.

These things have been around since the 1970's. The inventors then claimed that within a couple years their system would be perfected and the Arabs wouldn't get our money any longer. Of course some will insist that 'big oil' buys up the patents so they can keep making money.

That is a bit longer winded than Tim. Use the money they want for the HHO generator to buy something of value, like beer.

Later,
Jerry Christiansen
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Old 05-21-2011, 01:21:12 PM
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Default Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Christiansen View Post
...Every time energy changes form, some of the energy is converted into unusable heat...
Just reminded me of one of the simplest and cheapest ways to increase your fuel ecconomy.

Put in a hotter thermostat, but not so hot that you have problems with detination or vapor lock, both of which can be kept under control by other methods.

Running too cold of a thermostat wastes fuel as the heat from the combustion is going into heating & reheating the heads & cylinders instead of causing the expansion that pushes the piston down making power. If a higher percentage of the fuel burned is being wasted heating the block, you need to burn more fuel to make the power needed to move the car. Once the block is up to temperature, more of the fuel burned is making usable power instead of being wasted heating the block. The hotter you can run it, the more efficient it is as long as you can control vapor lock & detination.

Just a side note on that... it works better on engines with more clearance than ones that are built tight. If the valve guides are running tight clearances, the valves could sieze up if you run too hot. The valves in my old Firebird are kind of loose & sloppy, and I once drove it 10 miles home with no radiator after swerving to miss someone that pulled out in front of me & knocking out the radiator with one of those big wiskey barrel planters. My normal operating temp was in the 240 degree range with the radiator and I ran it 10 miles without one without hurting the engine. (already at 240 degree when the radiator got knocked out, plus how ever much hotter it got the next 10 miles.... temp gauge was pegged) Pulled it out of that car and ran it in another one for several years until I exploded the torque converter, replaced that & ran it a couple more years before parking it. Still fire it up for a short run every once in a while just to keep things oiled up while I decide what to put it in next.
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Old 05-22-2011, 03:16:33 PM
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Default Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalmatiangirl61 View Post
OTTO

Can anyone remember other "fuel saving" devices?
There was a small coil that you placed on the distributor cap on the coil wire lead. This upped the voltage and was supposed to make your engine run better. One guy had put one on all the individual plug wires. I had one, but couldn't tell any difference. This was back in the mid 1970's.

Some where I have a water injection system that I never installed form the 80's. Couldn't tell you where its at though.

Richard W,
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:29:25 AM
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Default Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard W. View Post
...Some where I have a water injection system that I never installed form the 80's. Couldn't tell you where its at though.

Richard W,
Same situation.... I have one from the late 60's early 70's that I saved off of a 68 Olds 98. It's either in the basement, in the garage, or buried out in the building somewhere...

They actually work better on the earlier High Compression engines that had to have the timing retarded to run on the lower octane gas in the 70's & later, as it allowed you to advance the timing back up to where it should be. Dad made his own set up for his 65 Olds, but at the time I think he was more concerned about getting the power back than he was with increasing the milage.

I have a NOS "Miles Master" "3 in 1" fuel pressure regulator/filter/trap that is supposed to "save gas", on a shelf in the basement. Not sure how old it is, but by the packaging I'd guess it to be 1960's or 70's.
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Old 05-26-2011, 10:04:41 PM
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Default Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

I can't say if these things work at all but I know you can do things to an intake charge of an engine that make more power than they use to make. The plant I work at has gas turbines. We chill the air going into them down to 50 degrees. We do this by running 7500 tons worth of chillers. These chillers take a few megawatts to run but they increase the output of the turbines by 5 megawatts each on 4 units.

As far as computer controlled engines go. Running one of these probably wouldn't effect the computer much. Consider you are adding HHO to the intake. When it burns it makes water, You are adding a balanced amount of fuel and o2. I doubt you would see much of anything as far as the o2 sensor goes.
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Old 01-31-2012, 03:10:02 PM
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Photo Re: Do Hydrogen Generator Fuel Cells Work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalmatiangirl61 View Post
...Can anyone remember other "fuel saving" devices?
I forgot to post a picture when I added post #18, but here's a shot of that old MilesMaster fuel saver regulator/filter I have in the basement.

Only thing I can figure is that maybe by lowering the fuel pressure pushing against the needle & seat and float, the slightly lower fuel level in the carburator would cause it run a little leaner and MAYBE save a little gas if the carb was adjusted too rich to start with. If the engine was already running lean then you likely be 'in the throttle' more to make up for lost power and would end up using more gas instead of saving any.

Seafarer12: The cooler denser air from your chiller set up packs more air, which means more oxygen, into the engine allowing it to burn More fuel which makes more power. Though it uses more fuel, it also allows the use of smaller engines to make the same amount of power as the bigger one would without the cooler, thereby saving fuel. The ideal setup would be cold air intake in a hot engine as noted in my previous post about using a hotter thermostat to save fuel instead of wasting gas heating the heads & cylinders that could be used to make power.
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