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Hornsby-Akroyd


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  #41  
Old 03-11-2019, 02:47:37 AM
gcm gcm is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Hi Guys, Thnx again for your valuable advice, it is much appreciated. For a novice like me and a home workshop full of toys not remotely close to my occupation, I need to read and learn. Therefor your advice is important to me and it ensures I do not jump into something I might regret it later.
I have placed the pump in a ATF/Acetone mixture, sealed the container and stacked away. Unfortunately my work interferes way to much with my hobby and I will be away for at least three weeks. I will check then and report back if there is any voluntary movement from that plunger ;-)
Regarding the molasses - I have also read it will damage special steals if it stays in the molasses for too long. I normally work around two weeks at a 1 liter molasses / 6 liter water mix. In most cases two weeks is enough. Sometimes I still notice some rust and then use a wire brush on it and put it back for another week or two. It will crawl it's way into anything even lift paint but it is because there was rust under the paint.
After reading the article about molasses damaging special metals I took a piece of cast iron which had a warn out white metal bearing. I have mixed molasses 50/50 in a container and left the part there for two months and did not find any damage or even the soft white metal to have any strange marks which it did not have before. I do not want to state that I do not believe that it will damage but I do feel every part should be handled on its own merit. Regarding the pitting I think it might be a case that the part was already pitted and the grease and grime close the mark nicely but after the molasses did its work the mark is now clean and nicely exposed ;-)
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  #42  
Old 03-11-2019, 03:12:03 AM
Darryl Darryl is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Work gets in the way of our hobby all the bloody time. The thing is , one day that engine will be running which is what its all about and especially the first time it fires and the governor takes over , its just gold.
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  #43  
Old 03-11-2019, 06:04:10 PM
typak typak is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Could just put it in a ultrasonic cleaner and then press it out, found this one the other day and will be going into the ultrasonic cleaner for a bath.
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  #44  
Old 03-12-2019, 05:10:35 AM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

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Originally Posted by Paul Richardson View Post
The most curious feature of your volunteering to correct my homework is the 'addition of' and then 'boiling down of' all of these imaginary consequences of yours into the description "simply heat".It becomes "simply heat" that destroys bronze.Poor editorial mate.
Hi Paul,

I think I see your confusion......I wasn't addressing you I was communicating with Gert.

Your remark of "simply heat" is how I described my method of destroying a casting. Its in a sentence mate, you can't just remove it and make it your own......or obviously you can. My editorial may be poor, but it wasn't meant for you.

Regards,
Wayne
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  #45  
Old 03-12-2019, 07:51:23 PM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is online now
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Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

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Originally Posted by Wayne Timms View Post
Hi Gert,
Paul might be a little relaxed with his statement.
*****My number one weapon to destroy a bronze casting above an angle grinder, sledge hammer, press etc is simply heat.******
If you heat the bronze fuel pump to much, you may easily destroy it. I don't like to heat a bronze casting. Maybe warm it, but its a very fine line - just be careful how much heat you apply.
Regards,
Wayne
There's the sentence Wayne,along with the entire post.I don't see a lot of benefit in wanting to change it?Considering you were "only really involved in the discussion because of (my) comment telling Gert to get the whole thing hot,with no mention of the consequences,or comment around putting the fuel pump under stress".

........an important reason no doubt,if you had that conviction Wayne,..but no comment yourself in the entire post,.....around putting the fuel pump under stress.

https://youtu.be/NC0RMiwXwY0

Misunderstandings are easy on the internet I have found,and I am part of that,every time I have encountered a problem.With that in mind I would prefer to let the matter ride.
Gert mentions being a novice,and relying on experience from others as valuable guidance.I know exactly how he feels every time I try something new.I know his position exactly,when I think about the first ever oil engine that I retrieved and began to restore.It was bigger than Gerts,and carrying a lot of bent and butchered bronze castings that the brass pirates 'didn't quite get'.Because of a lack of good reliable information,or any information really on how to treat bent and damaged bronze castings,i had to step out and learn the hard way,about how not to handle the job of straightening bronze.
It turns out that too cold can be a problem for a lot of bronze alloys when blacksmithing,just like too much heat can.

I have included a video.Not to try to be a smartarse on the tail ending of a misunderstanding about heating bronze,but to perhaps offer some insight that I could have made good use of 30 years ago for my engine.I find personally that the expert knowledge around some specialist processes is simply not around.
Working in a professional capacity in the last 10 years or so with windmill bores has presented me with a similar headache around bronze.Steel windmills for water are a passing technology with many of the 'old blokes' who serviced them now gone.Me being a late bloomer in that trade I lack experience,and on almost every job I found myself struggling badly with the many bronze/steel and bronze/brass threaded couplings.
That was until my 'old mate' who has worked on windmills all his life locally set me straight.It turns out that for all bronze pump end caps and valve bodies,where they are intended to be reused or reconditioned,the engineers hammer is the number one tool in the windmill mans kit.His advice and a little bit of schooling on technique took me from having a major headache with every second coupling or valve,to being someone who could routinely dismantle pump and valve assemblies with confidence.I still bring the plumbers torch on jobs of that kind,but it very seldom gets used.

My other 'playing with bronze' involves sometimes up to a ton each year for non ferrous scrap.This has gone on now for a little over 20 years. It took a lot of trade flame and time and skun knuckles before I learned that confining brass and bronze with a wood fire is by far the most efficient in terms of time and energy for separating it from stubborn steel and iron couplings.The heat of a normally aspirated wood fire almost always takes brass and bronze well above the dull reds mentioned in the video,but because the aim is to just get things hot it doesn't pose a risk.
This method has been so successful in terms of minimising the usual expected damage from 'working cold',that the bronze items pumps valves etc that I value for reconditioning are often placed in the fire with the scrap when cooking.
I wouldn't insist that my experience is "the only way",but there are some methods that I have great confidence in.That would be why I was happy to blurt out "don't be frightened",..etc?
It's good to see Gert making a decision on soaking his pump(possibly the best one for that particular pump?).Time will tell.I think it's very good also where people share their first hand experience with certain methods in this hobby.Sharing the failures and detailing them is also very valuable as far as I'm concerned.
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  #46  
Old 03-16-2019, 12:35:46 AM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Okay Paul, let it ride.

Hi Gert,

Just so there is no confusion, the bronze bar in the you tube video above is not manufactured in the same method as your casting. Your fuel pump is a bronze sand casting. The metal will not be as dense as the bar in the video.

If you do decide to heat the fuel pump, be cautious and try not to heat the threads directly as they can quickly anneal and become soft. Which may cause you problems later with binding the threads up. I find it is more common for threads to bind on bronze that has been heated post machining.

Hopefully the soaking works.

Regards,
Wayne
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  #47  
Old 03-16-2019, 07:52:37 PM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is online now
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Originally Posted by Wayne Timms View Post
Okay Paul, let it ride.

Hi Gert,

Just so there is no confusion, the bronze bar in the you tube video above is not manufactured in the same method as your casting.

Regards,
Wayne
Sure Wayne,thank you.
Added to your clarification to Gert on manufacture method above,I think more important to note is that the material in the vid is "silicone bronze". (announced at the outset by the presenter in the vid).
Gert's pump is most likely a typical pump valve style of bronze such as gunmetal,normally having a similar toughness but being fairly soft?Silicone bronze from my limited knowledge of those alloys,would be much better suited to forging because of it's inherent hardness compared to the softer high copper content materials commonly used in pumps/bearings etc.
I have heard it said that silicone bronze makes a good bearing,but I think that advice was misinformed?Brass makes a poor bearing because of hardness,and I suspect silicone bronze would be on the way to returning a similar result (in low speed/splash or drip feed applications) for the same reason?
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  #48  
Old 03-16-2019, 08:04:57 PM
drumfield drumfield is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Silicon bronze has a higher inherent lubricity, due to the silicon content, and so would make better bearings.
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  #49  
Old 03-16-2019, 10:24:16 PM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is online now
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I think Drumfield,for modern high speed applications that would indeed be the case.

Last edited by Paul Richardson; 03-17-2019 at 02:52:04 AM.
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  #50  
Old 03-16-2019, 10:51:19 PM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Hi Paul,
I see you are confused again. I was addressing Gert.
When you said let it ride, I thought you meant you didn't want to be in the conversation anymore.
So rather than confuse Gert with information he didn't need I was giving him information he did need.
My final post on this discussion with you.
Regards,
Wayne

P.S. Don't take offence to this last post, I just have other things to do.
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  #51  
Old 03-16-2019, 11:43:45 PM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is online now
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Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Misunderstandings are easy on the net Wayne.Thanks for straightening me out on 'what was meant for who'.That helps."Let it ride" does have its own common connotation with me,so naturally i have continued comfortably on here in that understanding.Thanks.
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  #52  
Old 06-02-2019, 07:43:14 AM
gcm gcm is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Hi guys,
I have at last managed to get the piston out of the pump. I have paced it in ATF&Acetone on the 11th March and sort of put it on the lower side of my priority list. This morning I decided to give it another go and it came loose without much effort. I had t use a hammer put I only used the weight of the hammer with no power behind it and it came loose. The shaft I see is slightly bend but could be my previous attempts.
Cheers
Gert
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  #53  
Old 06-02-2019, 08:35:54 AM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is online now
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Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Good job Gert,...you made the right call for that bit!
You can count it now as one step closer to 'going'.
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  #54  
Old 06-02-2019, 01:57:17 PM
gcm gcm is offline
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Thank you I am very pleased that it came out.
Yesterday I saw a beautiful 1911 Tangye running at our local festival. It made some fire under my tail and today after I have unloaded my engines, I could not wait to open the container to see if I can get it loose.
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  #55  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:12:28 AM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is online now
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Hi Gert,only a little while after reading your last post here,i found a nice Tangye from down your way while surfing the net.
I had wondered when I read part of it's story,..could this possibly be the same source of inspiration that you mentioned?
Certainly it's a beautifully presented largish stationary engine!
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  #56  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:55:58 AM
gcm gcm is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Same engine
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