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Garden Tractors and Mowers Vintage lawn and garden tractors, mowers, snow blowers, snowmobiles and other old machinery that is driven by small air cooled engines.

Garden Tractors and Mowers

Allis Chalmers engine swap?


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  #1  
Old 05-01-2008, 06:09:11 AM
k301s
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Default Allis Chalmers engine swap?

Hi guys/gals, new member here. I am in desperate need of some help in regards to the identification of an older Kohler Twin 17 engine. However, I cannot locate any number from which to identify it. I am told that this motor has the same bolt pattern as my k301s and would like to upgrade to the 17hp engine if possible. I will hopefully be installing the engine in a third generation Allis Chalmers 912 Hydro that my grandfather bought brand new some years ago. I have started the Twin 17 a couple of times but it has a few oil leaks that I'd like to repair when I pull it. I was thinking of ordering a seal kit but can't locate any numbers from which to do so. I have pulled the heads and verified the cylinder walls are in great shape and the motor has never been cracked open for repairs. With that said, here's a few pics to go by. Hopefully, someone can offer some assistance. Great site by the way!!!!Sorry for being long winded, and thanks in advance for any and all replies!!!............ ALAN










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  #2  
Old 05-01-2008, 08:54:47 AM
K D Redd K D Redd is offline
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

Your engine is most likely a KT-17 or maybe a M-18. If your engine is point type ignition it will be a KT-17 as the M18 were electronic ignition. There are two KT-17. The "plain engines" oiling system is a mix of pressurized and splash while the series II is a full pressurize system with the very late KT-17 series II set-up for a full flow oil filter. Some just have a block-off plate where the filter would go. The only way you can realy tell the differance between the two, if you do not have the I.D. stickers is to split the crankcase on the engine. The ID stickers would be on the engine shroud piece that I do not see on the engine in your picture. THESE SHROUD PIECE NEED TO BE IN PLACE WHEN RUNNING THE ENGINE. I also see you have the wrong spark plugs in your engine as the KT-17 use a 14 MM tapered seat plug using a 5/8 inch hex wrench. You have installed a 14 MM flat set plug using a 13/16 inch hex wrench.
I swapped a KT-17 series II in the place of a K-301 on a 812 GRAVELY but that swap is TOTALLY differant than what you are doing.

Kent
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  #3  
Old 05-01-2008, 05:10:05 PM
k301s
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

K D Redd........ Thanks for the help. I do have the engine shroud pieces and will double check these to hopefully find the tag in order to identify the engine. But I honestly don't think it's there. Too, I have no intentions of cracking the crank case open to measure the bore and stroke. This will be a last resort. But it may be the only way I can distinguish between the average KT-17 and the series II, unless others no of another way. Thanks for the heads up on the spark plugs. I have done nothing to this motor, other than crank it up a couple times to make certain it runs, warms up, and is well lubricated so as to not lock up on me due to rust and sitting unused. As you can tell, I have all that I assume is needed for the transition.... (wiring, controls, and whatnot).... if the oil pan/motor mounting holes line up correctly. It appears that the horizontal shaft will indeed bolt to the drive shaft of the rear end just the same as the k301 does. I am pretty sure I have the service manuals for the KT-17's. As soon as I can get it transferred over to the Allis Chalmers and get it running, I plan to decarb the engine. While I continue digging up information on the identification, do you have any tips or pro's pointers prior to starting this motor swap modification? Thanks again............ ALAN
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  #4  
Old 05-01-2008, 05:26:02 PM
k301s
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

So....... the engine is definitely a KT-17 as this photo clearly shows the cover for the points.



Now, to identify as to whether it is a series II or not. If, I had to guess, I'd say it's "old school". Anyone else care to take a stab at it?
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  #5  
Old 05-01-2008, 05:43:03 PM
k301s
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

This may be of further help in determining the age of the motor. Here's a photo of the mower it's sitting in. As you can see, it's been painted over a couple times and, as my luck would have it, there are no tags for identification purposes. I am thinking that this is a Allis Chalmers 917 Hydro because it's set up exactly like that of my 912 Hydro that I'm working on. Too, there is a sticker which lists the attachments available for it and the part #'s of each.
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:44:05 PM
k301s
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

Sorry, here's the photo. Wish I could edit my previous post......

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  #7  
Old 05-01-2008, 10:31:22 PM
W.P.Klein W.P.Klein is offline
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

The chassis is flared on the 900 Allis series with twin cylinder Kohlers. You would need to modify a chassis that used a single cylinder or use the twin chassis. Bill Klein
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Old 05-02-2008, 06:00:24 AM
k301s
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

Thanks for the reply W.P.Klein. Although I don't fully understand what it is your telling me. Can you explain a little further?
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Old 05-02-2008, 08:03:39 AM
K D Redd K D Redd is offline
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

The Bore and The Stroke on a KT-17 plain and KT-17 series II are the SAME. The differance is in the design of the OILING SYSTEM.

Kent
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Old 05-02-2008, 08:15:19 AM
Tom Kilgore Tom Kilgore is offline
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Arrow Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

seems to me if it has a oil filter, it is a series II
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Old 05-02-2008, 12:28:09 PM
olcowhand olcowhand is offline
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

Earlier series II had no oil filter, just sump screen. My bet is this is series I.
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Old 05-02-2008, 07:28:09 PM
k301s
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

I seem to agree with Olcowhand. Was there a difference in the ingnition on the older series I and older series II engines? Maybe this would help narrow it down a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by W.P.Klein View Post
The chassis is flared on the 900 Allis series with twin cylinder Kohlers. You would need to modify a chassis that used a single cylinder or use the twin chassis. Bill Klein
I'm very interested in hearing more on this. I honestly don't understand exactly what I need to modify here. Does anyone know what he meant?
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Old 05-02-2008, 08:32:35 PM
olcowhand olcowhand is offline
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

I'm gonna stick my neck out with a guess as to what he meant. I believe he means the chassis side rails are bent outward to accept the wide engine? Not seen that model, but think that's the case.
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Old 05-02-2008, 10:46:33 PM
W.P.Klein W.P.Klein is offline
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

The frame area where the engine rests is flared wide to accept the twin engine. The single did not require this extra width so the frame sides were straight. Bill Klein
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Old 05-03-2008, 09:45:29 AM
k301s
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

Quote:
The frame area where the engine rests is flared wide to accept the twin engine. The single did not require this extra width so the frame sides were straight. Bill Klein
Thanks again W.P. I thought that was what you were referring to but wanted to be absolutely certain. I don't think that's going to be too tuff of a modification. It will take some time to do, but I can get it done.

Was there a difference in the ingnition on the older series I and older series II engines that might help in making the determination without cracking this thing open? You gentlemen have been a tremendous help....... Thanks agian!!!........... ALAN
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Old 05-03-2008, 08:52:23 PM
K D Redd K D Redd is offline
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

No both Plain and Series II KT-17 used point. AS I said before if you do not have the information from the original shrouds the ONLY way to tell is disassemble the engine. I have rebuilt 3 KT-17's. One I got in a trade that was a Series II. I used it to repower my Gravely 812. One was for a friend of my Little Bother'e Father-in-Law. It was a "plain" from and Early JD 317. The other was from my Sister's JD 317. It was a Series II with provision for an oil filter BUT the way the JD engine mount went on the engine you COULD NOT mount the oil filter base or filter.

Kent
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  #17  
Old 05-04-2008, 10:22:33 AM
k301s
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

Thanks again K.D........ Do I only need to remove the oil pan to inspect the manner in which it transmits oil throughout the engine. If so, this would really be no big deal as I plan to install all new seals anyhow. This is what I'm assuming is the only difference between the two series. From what I'm hearing, the bore and stroke would have been the same. OR am I mistaken? What exactly do I need to be looking for when inspecting and trying to make a determination as to the series? Once I make this determination, I'll order the seal kit and begin my project. Thanks again!!!!......... ALAN
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  #18  
Old 05-04-2008, 10:26:54 AM
k301s
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

Just another note, the crank shaft seal at the rear of the engine is leaking. To the best of my knowledge, this is the only "bad" leak that I have. Everything else is very minor and probably doesn't warrant the seal changes. I just decided to replace them as a precaution. If anyone could help with a part number to change the crank shaft seals, It would certainly be appreciated......... ALAN
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Old 05-04-2008, 05:07:51 PM
K D Redd K D Redd is offline
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

There is NO oil pan to remove!!! You have to remove the clouser plate on the PTO side of the engine, Is this the side you leaking oil seal is?, then you must remove the heads and the cylinder jugs and then SPILT the crankcase to inspect the oil system. When you go this far you had just as well rebuild the engine. The best thing to do is to ALWAYS keep the engine fulll of oil and NEVER operate the engine very far from level. This is what I have seen recommended for "plain" KT-17.
The oiling system on both KT-17's has an oil pump. On the "plain" KT17 the main bearing receive oil pressure but the rods DO NOT. There is a "sprit hole" at one end of the engine, the PTO side I think, that sprays oil over the rod to lube them. I think also the cam is hollow with sprit holes in it. The KT-17 series II both the mains and the rod bearing receive oil pressure.
The KT-17 series II I have on my Gravely has MOBIL ONE 10W-30 synthetic oil in it because I use it on some VERY unlevel ground and in the winter when I need a snow blower.

Kent
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  #20  
Old 05-04-2008, 11:39:02 PM
k301s
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers engine swap?

I'm not sure what the "clouser" plate is, but the side that is leaking is the flywheel side or end.
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