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use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points


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  #1  
Old 08-06-2012, 11:29:12 AM
sdowney717 sdowney717 is offline
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Default use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

You can wire up this box and keep the points.
The coil will fire when the points close

Think this idea would work on a MCCK?

http://www.gofastforless.com/ignition/electronic.htm

---------- Post added at 11:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 AM ----------

picture of schematic from the web site

anyone have a link to a circuit to make your own electronic point fire device?



---------- Post added at 11:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 AM ----------

Describes how to use a gm module to fire coil with points.
I already have a module, just need a transistor.


http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZ...ForPoints.html


https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0...520points2.png

---------- Post added at 11:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 AM ----------

the advantage of the GM design is the coil fires when the points open.
With Mopar, they fire when it closes.
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  #2  
Old 08-06-2012, 11:47:48 AM
Ted_Cool Ted_Cool is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

The base resistors seem a little large in all designs. For a 2n2222 @ 12 volts, a total of about 2K seems right.

It probably works anyways, though!
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:32:20 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

It should work with any engine with points and 12 VDC available.
They were sold as aftermarket kits for cars , called CD ignition kits (cd=capacitor discharge)

The concept of using Electronic ignition with points on cars was popular in the early ~1970's (arab oil embargo) to save the points and get higher voltage for better fuel economy.

I think 2n2222 transistor is a 10 cent item., very generic basic transistor. Surprised to see it as an EXTERNAL item, the CD ignition kits I remember had all parts contained internally.

---------- Post added at 12:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 PM ----------

Let me clarify that,,,,,, Thecar after market CD ignition kits came with internal spark coils, with one end grounded, so they would be ok on engines with distributor.

BUT 2-cylinder onans usually have the spark plugs in SERIES (no distributor) so you would need to have it drive an onan type coil (coil with both ends of the hi voltage winding coming out, and to each spark plug)
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:34:32 PM
PnishrPW PnishrPW is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

I agree w/ Ted on both counts. I`m an old Mopar nut, I know that the Mopar box will trigger off just about any pickup or points, EXCEPT the old AMC BID dist. An old trick I learned as a Dodge line tech: unplug the dist pigtail, turn key on, ground exposed pin of engine harness - if you have spark all is good (does not test dist). I don`t have much experience w/ HEI. The HEI module does need a decent heatsink and generous thermal grease to live a happy life. I`ve even seen a commercially sold "upgrade" kit that has a HEI module bolted to a Mopar dist, (AARRGGHH!!), don`t expect a long life due to insufficient heatsinking. HEI module does have the benefit of smaller size though. I`ve heard that either the 5 and/or the 7 pin HEI have a start retard built in, but don`t know personally.
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:37:11 PM
sdowney717 sdowney717 is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

plugs cant be series??
Think what you said, must be parallel high voltage output from the coil.

I think the Onan coil just splits high volt output
Series sounds like the spark voltage would flow to one block, fire gap, then flow thru block to other plug to fir gap back to coil. Whole block would be energized and touch it you would be shocked.
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  #6  
Old 08-06-2012, 12:45:52 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

No. The spark plugs ARE in series, look at the manual.

If the plugs were in parelle, if one had slightly less gap it would always fire and the other would never fire.

You don't get a shock from the block, because onan type coils are a special design, the hi-voltage windings are NOT connected to ground, as they commonly are in almost every other coil (cars, ect....)
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:53:19 PM
Power Power is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
You can wire up this box and keep the points.
The coil will fire when the points close


[/COLOR]the advantage of the GM design is the coil fires when the points open.
With Mopar, they fire when it closes.
I like MOPAR units. However, if they fire when points close, doubt can use on my Onans because timing would be way advanced with no way to set it where Onan put it. With non adjustable timing, has to be when points open.
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:54:05 PM
sdowney717 sdowney717 is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

So what they did was connect spark wire to one end of internal coil and other spark wire to other end of internal coil?
That sort of makes some sense to me.

Well then what coils can be substituted if your coil becomes defective. I had read the Onan coil was very expensive.

ok, here is the diagram

E1 and E2 are the plugs on each end of the coil wire.
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  #9  
Old 08-06-2012, 12:56:59 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

An Interesting side note.
Somewhere I saw a guy put a more modern pickupcoil type GM modual on an onan, with an standard industrial pickup coil, and a magnet drilled into the flywheel. IT drove a onan type coil.
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:57:53 PM
sdowney717 sdowney717 is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Power View Post
I like MOPAR units. However, if they fire when points close, doubt can use on my Onans because timing would be way advanced with no way to set it where Onan put it. With non adjustable timing, has to be when points open.
From the Mopar guy, he suggests change gap to accomodate this. Dont know if can be changed enough to work on MCCK.

Quote:
You need to change the point gap. A standard breaker point ignition fires when the points open, the electronic ignition will fire when the points close. If you don't regap the points the ignition will fire when the rotor is between posts on the distributor cap. Most likely you will have to make the point gap as small as possible. The smaller gap allows you to lower the breaker spring tension which will prolong point life.
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:08:18 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

Onan did that so they didn't have to add an expensive distributer. Now days cars do it too, I see some V8 engines with 4 coil packs ( 2 sparkplugs per coil pack)

To get a cheap onan type coil, try the junk yard for a car coil pack. I think someone said a buick V6 work, not sure though. I would measure the primary coil resistance on the onan and try to come close. I would start to worry if new coil reistance is lower, as more current will flow thru the driving modual.

Why spend time reengineering it , use a modual that fires like the onan.
I believe it's when points open.
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:15:49 PM
PnishrPW PnishrPW is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

Lots of coil packs out there, everybody uses them these days. GM coils are pretty generic from late `80s - late `90`s, they just have a funky rear mount for the primary wires. Most Mopar and Ford coils mount the primary wiring on top or side, I`d grab the pigtail from the "donor" also to make life easy. Probably could open the plug gap considerably, .035-.045 for a better spark. Agreed on pimary resistance. New plug wires would be a good idea also, went w/ 8mm Taylor Spiro-Pro`s on my 6.5 NH. I use them on all my vehicles, great wires and not noisy.
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:26:40 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

Agree on opening the gap. The modern coils fire at a higher voltage, I believe, to improve reliability of firing plug EVERY time it needs to (EPA issues)
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Old 08-06-2012, 03:25:36 PM
Power Power is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

Quote:
You need to change the point gap. A standard breaker point ignition fires when the points open, the electronic ignition will fire when the points close. If you don't regap the points the ignition will fire when the rotor is between posts on the distributor cap. Most likely you will have to make the point gap as small as possible. The smaller gap allows you to lower the breaker spring tension which will prolong point life.


He is right, but still will be advanced more than spec. May be ok, but I am not trying it on my wonderfull Onans..
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Old 08-06-2012, 03:41:05 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

Sounds like electronic ignitions may come in 2 different designs. Fire on points opening, fire on points closing.

---------- Post added at 03:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:37 PM ----------

I'm only familiar with older GM's.
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Old 08-06-2012, 04:12:00 PM
Tim0477 Tim0477 is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

If I remember right, there was a guy that went by KDRed on this board that posted some examples of how to roll your own electronic ignitions using automotive sensors and modules. It may be worth it to search for some of his posts.

Tim
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Old 08-06-2012, 05:11:18 PM
PnishrPW PnishrPW is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
[the advantage of the GM design is the coil fires when the points open.
With Mopar, they fire when it closes.
Actually, according to the quoted source material and schematic, both modules fire on points close. The transistor circuit functions as an signal inverter, and should work for both modules. As much as I hate to admit it, the GM module still has the benefits of smaller size and probably cheaper price... The Mopar module wins on no external heat sink required. GM module probably wins on availablity. Both modules can be hooked up using common generic female connectors, spades on GM - bullets on Mopar. Either module could probably be made to fit in most control box`s for a "clean" installation.

As to closing the point gap, I would be leary of point bounce - especially on older points. Would definately lessen rubbing block wear though.

I`m wondering how much plug gap could really be opened up, I suspect upwards of .055 (GM HEI general spec) may not be unreasonable... This, of course, is w/ a newer coil - not a stock Onan unit.

I wonder what a MSD 5 or 6A would do. Got a couple of spares sitting on the shelf, ZZZZT ZZZZT ZZZZT! Probably a bit overkill...
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Old 08-06-2012, 05:46:35 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

MSD 5 or 6A ???

When GM first went to HEI (1975), the spark gap was .060 or .065 , the coil fired only one spark plug. On my "modern" 1987, 89, 91, 92, 93 Chev Caprices the spark gap is .035" , coil still only fires one spark plug. These all have distributors. The spark on my "modern" cars looks alot more powerfull (more current) than old GM's from the 1960's looked ( 1960's had ~ .032 gap). Think you have to go newer than ~ 2000 to get coil packs firing 2 plugs.

---------- Post added at 05:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:38 PM ----------

I suspect the reason small gasoline engines, "stumble" (lose a power stroke) when they run is spark plug didn't fire. Think snow blowers and lawn mowers.

I suspect a HEI upgrade will make onans run smoother and be easier to start. I upgraded the ignition on my 1960 jeep ( for snow plowing yard) with a relay that bypassed the external coil resistor when starting. Made starting much easier.
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Old 08-06-2012, 05:49:12 PM
John Ward John Ward is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

What about this?

http://www.kirkengines.com/index.php#PointSaver
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:00:10 PM
sdowney717 sdowney717 is offline
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Default Re: use a MOPAR electronic ignition to save the points

Quote:
Originally Posted by PnishrPW View Post
Actually, according to the quoted source material and schematic, both modules fire on points close.
.
Are you sure, reading right off one of the diagrams says

'The spark occurs just as the points open'
I did not read very carefully the entire site.

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