Antique Engines and Old Iron
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Antique Engine Community > Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion Meet collectors of hit and miss engines, ask questions about collecting, restoring and showing antique flywheel engines.

Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion

1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 7


this thread has 16 replies and has been viewed 2776 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-23-2010, 04:11:10 PM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,246
Thanks: 3,183
Thanked 28,397 Times in 2,569 Posts
Default 1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 7

Previous page of this thread ( Page 5 )http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84292

Next project is to make the hot tube burner. There was a lot of behinds the scenes stuff and investigation going on here. And lots and lots of trial and error.

The first attempt was to use a simple tube preheater design that would fit inside the shell of the burner.

For your humor Here are a couple photos of failed attempts.

1st photo is drilling a 0.010" hole in .125 diameter Stainless steel tubing. This hole is where the vapor will be released from it being boiled as a result of absorbed heat.





Completely unacceptable cold flame.

Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Wayne Grenning For This Post:
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 12-23-2010, 04:30:15 PM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,246
Thanks: 3,183
Thanked 28,397 Times in 2,569 Posts
Default Re: 1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 7

I will not waste your time showing the many failed designs.

After examination of dozens of photos and using some good old mechanical sense. I came up with the following design:

This burner or torch has a 1/8th inch NPT brass pipe feeding a vapor chamber. In this vapor chamber, acquired heat from the top shield boils the gasoline. These flashed off vapors shoots upward through an extremely small orifice at the top of the "boiler" The shield around this burner is drilled with holes of the appropriate size and location to allow the proper flame. The flame must be above the top of the shield - not inside.

1st step is to make the boiler portion of the burner. This is made of two brass pieces, a domed section and a bottom cap. Here the hollow domed section was made and a 0.0055" hole through the top.





Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Wayne Grenning For This Post:
  #3  
Old 12-23-2010, 04:38:28 PM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,246
Thanks: 3,183
Thanked 28,397 Times in 2,569 Posts
Default Re: 1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 7

Here are the finished dome, base cap and gasoline inlet pipe



Next an internal mandrel will be made from aluminum that the outer shield can be formed over.
Here the mandrel is made using the super spacer.





Next the 1" diameter 0.032" thick wall alloy 260 brass tube is slipped over the mandrel.

Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Wayne Grenning For This Post:
  #4  
Old 12-23-2010, 04:44:41 PM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,246
Thanks: 3,183
Thanked 28,397 Times in 2,569 Posts
Default Re: 1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 7

Next using a multitude of methods the brass tube is formed over the mandrel to make the nozzle shape.







The finished tube and burner. The burner assembly was silver soldered together.

Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Wayne Grenning For This Post:
  #5  
Old 12-23-2010, 04:47:12 PM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,246
Thanks: 3,183
Thanked 28,397 Times in 2,569 Posts
Default Re: 1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 7

The first attempt was not perfect, but acted kind of like it should. Problem was that the flame was inside the shield rater than on top.



Here you can see the flame inside the shield
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Wayne Grenning For This Post:
  #6  
Old 12-23-2010, 04:56:21 PM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,246
Thanks: 3,183
Thanked 28,397 Times in 2,569 Posts
Default Re: 1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 7

Much refining and tweaking occurred before the next few photos.

In brief:

Additional air holes were drilled
The boiler top vent hole was increased in several increments up to 0.0135"
The overall length of the shield was shortened by 0.437"
The opening of the shield "nozzle" was pinched off 30%

This is the setup





For a final test the hot tube was held over the flame to verify it would glow. - Success !

Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-23-2010, 05:43:28 PM
Enar Drugge Enar Drugge is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Villages, FL. USA
Posts: 61
Thanks: 82
Thanked 10 Times in 7 Posts
Thumbs up Re: 1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 7

Hi Wayne,

Fantastic!! What are you using to drill the holes with? Milling machine? Really nice drill press? Something more exotic?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-24-2010, 05:05:50 AM
Eric M.'s Avatar
Eric M. Eric M. is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Southern CA, USA
Posts: 2,099
Thanks: 1,004
Thanked 1,083 Times in 474 Posts
Default Re: 1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 7

Very well done! You deserve a big tip of the hat for solving that problem!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-24-2010, 06:17:36 AM
Chris Austin's Avatar
Chris Austin Chris Austin is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Freeport, Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 382
Thanks: 2,090
Thanked 1,927 Times in 199 Posts
Default Re: 1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 7

Looks to me like he is using a Albrecht hand feed drill chuck(Or fingertip in this case! With a .0055 thou drill one must be very careful, and have lots of luck!). No using the spindle to drill holes this small. Very important when drilling holes this small to have a very sensitive feed! Great work Wayne!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-24-2010, 07:23:08 AM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,246
Thanks: 3,183
Thanked 28,397 Times in 2,569 Posts
Default Re: 1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 7

Chris, thanks. The Albrecht hand feed chuck is exactly what I used. It can be seen in the first picture of post #2 above. For those not familiar, it is a device that is held in a collet or larger precision chuck in the milling machine. The feed is done my hand by grabbing the large knurled disk above the chuck. This disk has ball bearing inside so it stays stationary while holding onto it. The chuck while driven through a telescopic drive tube and can only be driven downward by applying hand pressure through the knurled wheel. You could never use the hand wheel or quill of a mill as the force can not be controlled accurately enough to prevent drill breakage. I very very lightly spot drilled the hole first. Some luck is needed, but more than anything, a little oil, 20x magnification goggles, drill speed of 1800 RPM and a gentle touch are required. This brass part was not so bad but the earlier attempts at drilling holes through the stainless steel tubing were a little more hairy !

I still want to refine the burner a little. It is a bit touchy and would like the flame to be higher, but am most satisfied with the results obtained thus far.

To everyone out there including Harry for having this great page:

MERRY CHRISTMAS

Last edited by Wayne Grenning; 12-24-2010 at 08:36:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Wayne Grenning For This Post:
  #11  
Old 12-28-2010, 08:11:23 PM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,053
Thanks: 1,636
Thanked 2,063 Times in 561 Posts
Default Re: 1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 7

Hi Wayne,

That burner looks to work very well. How critical is the height of the fuel to the flame?

The only original part I have to the burners are in the photos below. I believe they run off a small amount of exhaust pressure, to create pressure in the tank to feed the burners. I think the larger of the valves is a safety to release the pressure if an explosion occurs in the exhaust. One is missing the flame arrester.

I have included a couple of photos below from a book, 'Gottlieb Daimler ein revolutionar der technik' by Paul Sieberg. One is a picture of, what I presume is, the original engine. As the reproductions seem to have a prefabricated flywheel, the same as the line drawing, also from the same book.

Regards,
Wayne

www.bluefuel-whitesmoke.com
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	daimler1.jpg
Views:	130
Size:	75.6 KB
ID:	96515   Click image for larger version

Name:	daimler2.jpg
Views:	127
Size:	72.2 KB
ID:	96516   Click image for larger version

Name:	daimler3.jpg
Views:	127
Size:	23.0 KB
ID:	96517   Click image for larger version

Name:	daimler4.jpg
Views:	109
Size:	24.9 KB
ID:	96518  
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Wayne Timms For This Post:
  #12  
Old 12-29-2010, 09:36:14 AM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,246
Thanks: 3,183
Thanked 28,397 Times in 2,569 Posts
Default Re: 1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 7

Wayne, Great info thanks. Early photos of the original are very difficult to come by.

As far as the burner is concerned. Tank height/head pressure are critical to reliable operation. The reproduction does not have any pressure increasing feature for the burner so as you can imagine everything needs to be ideal to get the best flame.

I am still refining the burner and have been playing with different fuel orifice and air bleed holes to achieve the best ( hottest ) flame. It is finicky!

By the way , Tonight I plan on testing the flash arrestor for the 1st time. The plan is to blow air through the carb and hold a flame up to the outlet which will have an explosive mixture. I anticipate the flame front to immediately enter the carb and stop at the two stage arrestor, probably with a loud "pop". If the arrestor fails - well lets just hope that does not happen. Fire extinguishers - pins pulled and on standby........
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-29-2010, 11:41:49 AM
Elden DuRand's Avatar
Elden DuRand Elden DuRand is offline
In Memory Of
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Port St. Joe, Florida, USA
Posts: 7,800
Thanks: 13,041
Thanked 7,767 Times in 2,942 Posts
Default Re: 1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 7

Now Wayne:

Try not to make a flaming ash outta yourself. Remember that you haven't completed the project and to die before finishing is considered to be bad form.

Take care - Elden
http://www.oldengine.org/members/durand
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Take care - Elden
http://www.eldensengines.com
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-29-2010, 10:58:15 PM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,246
Thanks: 3,183
Thanked 28,397 Times in 2,569 Posts
Default Re: 1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 7

Elden, We are not dead yet. Progress & updates to be posted tomorrow!!!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-30-2010, 01:17:28 AM
eddie bedwell eddie bedwell is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: melbourne victoria australia
Posts: 339
Thanks: 6,661
Thanked 280 Times in 160 Posts
Default Re: 1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 7

Hi Wayne,
I, along with countless others, am following this series of posts in anticipation of you rediscovering old technologies/techniques on the surface carburetor and early style hot tube burners. It looks like you are getting there with the same doggedness used by these early pioneers.
I have attached a scan of a burner from a book I have on engines in general and hope the layout of the burner holes is true to life and not some artists representation.
Hope this helps.
Keep up the exellent work, and, the postings we so eagely await on your ever, maybe not so steady, progress forward towards success that will come, it was done in the past by Daimler and others, you will succeed again in following in their footsteps.

Cheers and Happy New Year to ALL,
Eddie B.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Hot Tube Burner.jpg
Views:	84
Size:	83.9 KB
ID:	96638  
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-30-2010, 08:15:40 AM
Wayne Grenning's Avatar
Wayne Grenning Wayne Grenning is offline
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lockport, New York, USA
Posts: 3,246
Thanks: 3,183
Thanked 28,397 Times in 2,569 Posts
Default Re: 1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 7

Eddie, Thanks for the encouragement and sketch. Made it through the evening with all our eyebrows and fingers. I have lots of details to post. Stay tuned and check back in a few hours. - Wayne
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Wayne Grenning For This Post:
  #17  
Old 12-30-2010, 10:45:23 AM
Elden DuRand's Avatar
Elden DuRand Elden DuRand is offline
In Memory Of
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Port St. Joe, Florida, USA
Posts: 7,800
Thanks: 13,041
Thanked 7,767 Times in 2,942 Posts
Default Re: 1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 7

Eddie:

Try to get that design past OSHA today!

I do like the method of heating the gasoline to pressurize the burner though.

Take care - Elden
http://www.oldengine.org/members/durand
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Take care - Elden
http://www.eldensengines.com
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Elden DuRand For This Post:
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 6 Wayne Grenning Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion 26 12-21-2010 06:04:01 PM
1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 4 Wayne Grenning Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion 17 12-13-2010 07:54:44 AM
1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 5 Wayne Grenning Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion 17 12-12-2010 06:17:45 PM
1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 3 Wayne Grenning Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion 15 12-05-2010 07:03:35 PM
1883 Daimler Experimental Engine Project - Page 2 Wayne Grenning Hit & Miss Gas Engine Discussion 13 11-28-2010 10:34:56 PM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:31:57 PM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2019 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277