Antique Engines and Old Iron
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Library] - [Photo Gallery] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Links] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Old Iron and Tractor Community > Vintage Construction Equipment > Dozers and Crawlers
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Dozers and Crawlers Holt, Caterpillar, Cletrac, etc.

Dozers and Crawlers

The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908


this thread has 19 replies and has been viewed 5025 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-13-2012, 02:32:45 PM
Brothers Clemens's Avatar
Brothers Clemens Brothers Clemens is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Haarlemmermeer, Lisserbroek, Netherlands
Posts: 6,412
Thanks: 13,322
Thanked 18,870 Times in 4,321 Posts
Default The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

Have looked inside the Smokstak search machine but can not find the next video.

It’s to nice for not to post.

Ok an very intresting very old movie about one of the most early Catterpillar’s.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TGgL...eature=related

---------- Post added at 06:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 PM ----------

Here is another one.

Also very intresting and not been on lugs, cleats and tracks.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1Zln...eature=related
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 06-13-2012, 09:15:45 PM
tharper tharper is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Windham, ME.
Posts: 555
Thanks: 39
Thanked 1,774 Times in 334 Posts
Default Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

Yes, Thats an interesting Hornsby Crawler but it isn't the first successful crawler tractor.

Alvin Lombards machine patented in Nov. of 1900 holds that claim to fame.

---------- Post added at 09:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 PM ----------

In fact in the second video you will see a 20 ton steam Lombard in action.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to tharper For This Post:
  #3  
Old 06-13-2012, 11:42:10 PM
delmerscott delmerscott is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: oklahoma usa
Posts: 324
Thanks: 434
Thanked 471 Times in 158 Posts
Default Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

Gentlemen please check out Holt Manufacturing Company based in Stockton California. They are credited with the first continous track "Caterpiller" type drive. In fact they changed their name to Holt Caterpiller the birth place of our modern Caterpiller tractor company
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to delmerscott For This Post:
  #4  
Old 06-14-2012, 12:22:48 AM
Oilpulled Oilpulled is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Rockford, Illinois, USA
Posts: 3,761
Thanks: 10,045
Thanked 5,287 Times in 2,013 Posts
Default Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

Thanks for interesting post. First video shows a good view of Hornsby type track. We know Hornsby and Lombard preceded Holt and Holt bought the track rights from the UK company, Hornsby, I believe. Second video says Holt & Best merged in 1908. I thought it was 1926.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Oilpulled For This Post:
  #5  
Old 06-14-2012, 12:45:17 AM
FWurth's Avatar
FWurth FWurth is offline
One Millionth Post
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Freeburg, Illinois, USA
Posts: 5,310
Thanks: 6,487
Thanked 4,543 Times in 2,409 Posts
Images: 4
Default Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

I believe they are refering to the first arrangement that Benjamin Holt made with the elder Daniel Best. The merger in 1926 was the final arangement to form the Caterpillar Co and was arranged betweem Ben holt's successor, Pliney Holt, Leo Best, Daniel's son and the bankers. I think Murray Baker worked out the deal to end the intense rivaly between the two firms once and for all. F.J.W.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to FWurth For This Post:
  #6  
Old 06-14-2012, 01:55:15 AM
Hcrawler Hcrawler is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Black Creek, BC, Canada
Posts: 76
Thanks: 15
Thanked 103 Times in 60 Posts
Default Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

Hcrawler ...

Hornsby Chain track steam crawler or its earlier brother are the first real crawler tractors ... most if not all other machines are actually half track units not a crawler steerable by its own two track by them selves ...
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Hcrawler For This Post:
  #7  
Old 06-14-2012, 06:49:10 AM
Brothers Clemens's Avatar
Brothers Clemens Brothers Clemens is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Haarlemmermeer, Lisserbroek, Netherlands
Posts: 6,412
Thanks: 13,322
Thanked 18,870 Times in 4,321 Posts
Default Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

Thanks guys,

Well i dit not have study the story above the video.

Only have post the tittle of the video tru to Smokstak.
The most intresting to me where the horses and the WW1 tank model track crawler.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-14-2012, 10:49:48 AM
chriscokid chriscokid is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Staley, NC. 27355
Posts: 34
Thanks: 0
Thanked 80 Times in 19 Posts
Default Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

Holt did not own the right to Lombards machine but copied it.
Best purchased the rights which proved to be the first track type tractor.

Ed Classens Book Making Tracks does a very good job of explaining the history between Holt and Best. It is very detailed with lots of information and great pictures.

to purchase: http://www.acmoc.org/store/p361/Maki...duct_info.html

info: http://www.makingtracksbook.com/
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to chriscokid For This Post:
  #9  
Old 06-14-2012, 03:24:40 PM
FWurth's Avatar
FWurth FWurth is offline
One Millionth Post
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Freeburg, Illinois, USA
Posts: 5,310
Thanks: 6,487
Thanked 4,543 Times in 2,409 Posts
Images: 4
Default Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

Old Ben Holt was like many of his fellow mfg barons of the time, he did pretty much what he pleased and to heck with rules. He had problems with the traction and flotation of his steam harvestors in the wet bottom lands and sought a solution, he was aware of lombards machine and went to the woods to check it out. He returned to his works and implemented them on his machine, but he didn't bother about getting patent rights from Alvin Lombard, he did eventualy get the rights from the Brittish firm for their design but it was a different design and the lombard people still had the rights here in the US. In the earlier buy out of Dan Best, Holt eliminated his only real competitor in the Harvester and Steam traction market out west. In the deal he agreed to havs Dan's son CL Best in the management of Holt co. After the deal, CL got pushed aside , well he had enough and reopened his fathers old plant and went to work. He saw the need to get the rights from Lombard and did so, Alvin was fed up with holt and readily signed them over to CL Best. Then for years there followed constant legal battles with the Holts until the passing of Ben Holt, Then enter the merger to form Catterpillar. After the merger most of the Best models remained as they were the more practical to manufacture. This is just a general overview. as stated above it is a very complex history well worth the time to study. F.J.W.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to FWurth For This Post:
  #10  
Old 06-14-2012, 08:07:47 PM
tharper tharper is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Windham, ME.
Posts: 555
Thanks: 39
Thanked 1,774 Times in 334 Posts
Photo Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

I thought this might be of interest. Here is a defendents exhibit from the Holt V. Best equity suit.

Last month I spent the better part of a day looking through the depositions of the counter suit filed by Best. To help boister his position Best did indeed purchased rights to the Lombard patents.

The photo is the track system of a Steam Lombard sold on October 25, 1905 to the Western Lumber Co. of Lothrop, MT.
and played a prominent role in the Holt, Best, Lombard equity suits.

This machine was one of five built to Lombard's 1905 patent. Later machines reverted to a heavily revised roller chain system.

Interestingly machines built under license by Phoenix used the early roller chain system for the duration of production.



Yes, Hornsby developed the first practical full track steering system but it was not the first "Crawler" by any stretch of the imagination.
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to tharper For This Post:
  #11  
Old 06-15-2012, 12:08:48 AM
FWurth's Avatar
FWurth FWurth is offline
One Millionth Post
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Freeburg, Illinois, USA
Posts: 5,310
Thanks: 6,487
Thanked 4,543 Times in 2,409 Posts
Images: 4
Default Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

Thanks for the close up of the lombard track assy. On examination you can clearly see that all the components of all modern crawlers track systems are there and in the same basic arrangement. Mr Lombard had it basically correct and all later designs are only minor differences. As we have seen in another thread, the Hornsby design had some major short comes in over all performance with their version, the pinching action jambing with stones and other debris and the excessive rocking motion of the chassis due to the radius of the track on the ground. I haven't seen much background on Lombard and it's early beginnings but it sure would be of interest. F.J.W.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-15-2012, 01:20:19 AM
Hcrawler Hcrawler is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Black Creek, BC, Canada
Posts: 76
Thanks: 15
Thanked 103 Times in 60 Posts
Default Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

Hcrawler ...

Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracked_vehicle and then decide who is the true inventor of tracked vehicles ...

you have first a horse draw tracked (wagons)

then there are all those half track machines steerable by wheels front or back and even sled runner versions ... That Holt, Best, Lombard and it's variation or what ever make is your fancy ... driven by steam, gas oil, or coal ...

But the first commercial crawler tractor ... as we now generally recognize as a (bulldozer) or any variation of a machine that looks like a Caterpillar cat machine of today was the Hornsby steam chain track tractor built in Linconln England ... So that would make it a British invention ...
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Hcrawler For This Post:
  #13  
Old 06-15-2012, 08:43:48 AM
tharper tharper is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Windham, ME.
Posts: 555
Thanks: 39
Thanked 1,774 Times in 334 Posts
Photo Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

Here is a photo of "Mary Anne" Lombard's very first machine built in November of 1900.





Before Mary Anne could be considered a success Lombard had to modify the design a bit. First and foremost the original track design used cog wheels rather than sprockets (as can be seen in the patent drawing above) - this quickly clogged-up with mud and ice and in Lombards words:

"The machine worked, and its idea and principle were all right, but just as soon as we struck loose, soft snow, or soft clayey mud, the mud worked right under those cogs and would throw it out of place and haul a belt out so straight that it wouldn't work and filled all up, and we would constantly have to stop and take these out with little chisels"

After trying various modifications Lombard solved the problem by using a toothed sprocket as has been common practice ever since.

The other problem was there was no differential or compensating gear - the connecting rods drove a cranked axle.
This limited maneuverability. Recognizing this handicap Lombard used a pair of cylinders mounted vertical on the each side of the smoke box and driving each track independently. This is the design the Phoenix machines followed.

By 1905 Lombard had developed an effective compensating gear which was used until he ceased manufacture of steam powered machines in 1917.

One of the features that made Lombards design a success was that while the track base was rigid with no sprung bogies etc. each track pivoted independently allow the tracks to follow the terrain rather than rearing and plunging. This of course was much nicer to the drawbars.

With the introduction of manganese steel a set of Lombard tracks and pins could last an average of 7800 miles which is remarkable considering that during the same period the British could only get an average of 20 miles out of a set of Mark IV tank tracks!

Incidently Lombard developed his first gasoline powered machine in March of 1909.



Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to tharper For This Post:
  #14  
Old 06-15-2012, 10:01:23 AM
tharper tharper is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Windham, ME.
Posts: 555
Thanks: 39
Thanked 1,774 Times in 334 Posts
Default Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

Mount Lombard
(64°31′S 59°38′WCoordinates: 64°31′S 59°38′W) is the highest peak dominating the mountain mass whose south extremity is Cape Sobral, Graham Land. Mapped from surveys by Falkland Islands Dependencies Survey (FIDS) (1960–61).

Named by United Kingdom Antarctic Place-Names Committee (UK-APC) for Alvin O. Lombard, American engineer of the Lombard Steam Log Hauler Co., Waterville, Maine, who designed some of the earliest successful over-snow tractors, the first application of knowledge of snow mechanics to trafficability, 1901-13."


Even the Brits. recognized Lombard
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to tharper For This Post:
  #15  
Old 06-22-2012, 05:52:39 PM
Stephen Watson Stephen Watson is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Burscough, United Kingdom
Posts: 50
Thanks: 277
Thanked 241 Times in 38 Posts
Default Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brothers Clemens View Post
Ok an very intresting very old movie about one of the most early Catterpillar’s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TGgL...eature=related
The Following is an extract from the National Vintage Tractor and Engine Club article in the summer 2012 issue by Ray Hooley.

In 1904, David Roberts of Hornsby's of Grantham took out his British Patent No. 16,345 which claimed: “My invention relates to Improvements in Traction Engines, Road Locomotives and Motor
Vehicles, or Vehicles to be drawn thereby. “It is well known that traction engines or other heavy road vehicles as now constructed are
limited in their use by reason of their wheels sinking to too great an extent when travelling over soft or sandy ground and over surfaces
of considerable irregularity. “Now this invention has for its object to obviate this defect and to this end the locomotive or other vehicle is
mounted upon a pair of front and a pair of rear wheels provided or formed with peripheral sprocket teeth; these wheels are mounted upon front and rear shafts respectively and either or both pairs may be driven
through the ordinary spur gearing when the vehicle is a self-propelled vehicle. “Two pitched chains of links and pins with cross bars
or blocks of metal or wood to make contact with the ground are passed around the front and rear sprocket wheels, one on each side of the vehicle and form a track. The weight of the vehicle body (and engine) is
taken by side brackets provided with curved pathways or bearing surfaces resting on rollers which in turn are supported on the chains, or on rollers of large diameter revolving on fixed pins. With this arrangement when the vehicle is running the body is, so to say, rolled
forward on the chains. Steering may be accomplished by varying the speed of the driving sprocket wheels on either side of the vehicle.
Dated this 23rd day of July, 1904.”

Four further patents were taken out by Roberts in the following years:
No.23,736 of 17th November 1905 claimed:
“Improvements in or connected with Road Locomotives
and Vehicles”.
No.7,289 of 26th March, 1906 claimed: “Improvements
in Variable Speed Driving Gear”.
No.19,574 of 31st August, 1907 claimed:
“Improvements in or connected with the Steering of
Road Locomotives and Vehicles”.
No. 16,436 of 14th July, 1909 claimed: “Improvements
in and connected with the Driving Axles of Chain Track
Tractors and Locomotives”.

In 1905, one of Hornsby's 1896 type single-cylinder oil tractors was fitted with the Roberts chain track. This machine was rated at 20hp. Trials at Grantham in July 1905 and February 1906 were observed by War Office staff.

The first Hormsby Crawler was built in 1905 and this machine was a world first in that it was steered by the slowing down of one traxk. It was the first full track crawler.

The video of the Hornsby is of a petrol-engined Rochet-Schneider car. This was fitted with chain tracks in 1907 and was thoroughly tested at Grantham before being taken to Aldershot for Army Trials in November 1907. This lightweight machine, weighing only 4 tons, achieved
speeds of 15mph over rough ground. Hornsby commissioned a movie film of this model, to be shown in London and provincial cinemas as part of an advertising campaign to sell the chain-track idea for a variety of uses.

The film was included on the Bill of the Empire Theatre, in Leicester Square, London, in the Summer of 1908.

Stephen Watson

---------- Post added at 10:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 PM ----------

Hcrawler
Said and I quote

'But the first commercial crawler tractor ... as we now generally recognize as a (bulldozer) or any variation of a machine that looks like a Caterpillar cat machine of today was the Hornsby steam chain track tractor built in Linconln England ... So that would make it a British invention'

The Hornsby steam crawler that was sent to the Yukon was ordered in 1909 and built in 1910. At that time Hornsy had already put an 1896 oil tractor onto tracks in 1905 and also done two cars. In August 1906, Hornsby had purchased a 40hp
petrol-engined Rochet-Schneider car. This was fitted
with chain tracks in 1907. In 1908 a 75hp Mercedes car was purchased. It was powered by a 6-cylinder petrol engine. In contrast with the Rochet-Schneider, the Mercedes was fitted with wooden wheels to carry the chain tracks Trials were held on the beach at Skegness during 1908 and 1909, when
speeds of 25mph were attained! Such speeds were not
achieved by any other tracked vehicle until the Second
World War!

Hornsy produced the first full track crawler to be steered by its tracks only.

Early in 1914 Hornsby sold the patent rights of the chain-track invention to the Holt Manufacturing Co, of New York, for the sum of £4,000.

The above is again extracted from the article by Ray Hooley in the Summer 2012 NVTEC magazine Vaporising.

Stephen Watson
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Stephen Watson For This Post:
  #16  
Old 06-22-2012, 11:43:18 PM
FWurth's Avatar
FWurth FWurth is offline
One Millionth Post
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Freeburg, Illinois, USA
Posts: 5,310
Thanks: 6,487
Thanked 4,543 Times in 2,409 Posts
Images: 4
Default Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

If you look at the videos on youtube of Don Hunter's Holt steam crawler and also look up pictures of the originals, you will see that Holt's tractor had a clutch for each track in the flywheels of the engine. When the steering wheel is turned the clutch for the inside track disengages, apparently automatically.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-24-2012, 11:09:57 AM
Stephen Watson Stephen Watson is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Burscough, United Kingdom
Posts: 50
Thanks: 277
Thanked 241 Times in 38 Posts
Default Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

The Don Hunter Steam Holt Crawler has a Front Wheel that steers. It might well have clutchs on the tracks to aid steering, but it still has a front wheel and in my eyes is a half track.

Hornsbys machines were all full tracked machines and had no wheel to aid steering.

Stephen Watson
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-24-2012, 06:11:12 PM
loggah loggah is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Campton, New Hampshire USA
Posts: 133
Thanks: 1
Thanked 91 Times in 41 Posts
Default Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

Hornsby may have had the first full-track crawler tractor, but the Lombard was the first practical crawler tracked machine, the title of this post should be changed to reflect that !!! Don
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-24-2012, 06:53:25 PM
tharper tharper is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Windham, ME.
Posts: 555
Thanks: 39
Thanked 1,774 Times in 334 Posts
Default Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

Quote:
Skegness during 1908 and 1909, when
speeds of 25mph were attained! Such speeds were not
achieved by any other tracked vehicle until the Second
World War!
Actually thats not quite correct.... J. Walter Christies 1928 design could hit over 40 mph when on tracks and 70 without.

Quote:
To recap it appears 5 Hornsby caterpillar machines were made—3 oil powered engines for gun haulage; one small Schneider auto; and the steam crawler.
Though David Roberts does deserve the crown for developing the first practical full-track steering system as opposed to "the first crawler or caterpillar track" one has to wonder why they were not a commercial success as well as why the military rejected the design? Perhaps a review of the reports from the trials could provide some clues.

This also leads to the question of why the early WW1 British tanks utilized practicly none of the Hornsby technology. For instance the Mark I tank required two steersman and two gearsman!

This in light of the fact the the Hornsby machines had been through military trials just prior to the war.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to tharper For This Post:
  #20  
Old 06-25-2012, 04:04:00 PM
Stephen Watson Stephen Watson is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Burscough, United Kingdom
Posts: 50
Thanks: 277
Thanked 241 Times in 38 Posts
Default Re: The World’s First Caterpillar Track 1908

Hornsby made numerous efforts to get the British military interestred in the crawler and numerous sucessful trials were conducted. the main reason for the failure of the Army to take up the machine was the vested interest of the Cavalry officers who were in charge and passing comments on the trials. they could only see the crawler working within columns of men and horses and could not see the advantage of the machine when allowed to work without the hinderance of horses. The Bovington Tank Museum still has in its collection one of the Hornsby machines.

By the end of 1913 Hornsby had become disillusioned with the army and sold the patents to Holt in 1914. It is somewhat ironic that within a year the war office were placing orders for 100's of holt machines. some 442 of these were made in Lincoln by Rustons under licence.

Rustons and Hornsby were to merge to form Ruston Hornsby.

Stephen
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Stephen Watson For This Post:
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
1923 Avery Track Runner Half Track Ed Bezanson Antique Steel Wheel Tractors - Old Iron Lugs and Cleats 19 11-06-2017 12:59:33 PM
1908 IHC Tom Thumb gas line MikeinIowa Antique Gas Engine Discussion 2 09-09-2015 07:34:54 AM
1908 25 HP 1908 Fairbanks Morse - Where is it now? Larry Evans Antique Gas Engine Discussion 1 11-14-2011 08:46:22 AM
2HP Jack of All Trades 1908 Jeff P Smith Antique Gas Engine Discussion 0 10-21-2009 12:55:09 AM
National #2 Pump 1908 Fred Gibson Antique Engine Archives 0 10-10-1999 01:28:47 PM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:11:39 PM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2016 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277