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Onan Generators

Onan CCK-MS/1196G Ignition Coil


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  #1  
Old 07-06-2019, 08:42:32 AM
Sbouvia Sbouvia is offline
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Hello, long time lurker first-time poster. I also posted in the welding board as this machine is a welder/generator. I thought I could get more info on the welder side there and more info on the generator side here. The unit is an Airco Wasp AC/DC welder generator model 2.25A/DDG-AMEL-A with an Onan CCK-MS/1196G generator on board.

It is an electric start model. I am trying to find a wiring diagram for the ignition circuit which has the 6-volt coil. Also, I was wondering what the coil should read using an ohmmeter on the bench. I have the Onan 927-1120 manual downloaded and what to make sure it is the right one for me. Also, my 1.72ohm 25-watt resistor looks a little suspect. One side has been almost torn off due to storage, where can I find a new one of These?
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Old 07-07-2019, 09:11:50 AM
Kevin K Kevin K is offline
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Default Re: Onan CCK-MS/1196G Ignition Coil

I found the build sheet for your Onan motor, but the scanning job was pretty poor. I made my best guess on the wiring diagram number.
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File Type: pdf 606-0102.pdf (42.5 KB, 14 views)
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:18:38 AM
Sbouvia Sbouvia is offline
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Any ideas on the coil resistance? Per the manual noted above, the resistance is higher than noted when measuring the bottom positive/negative connections. The measurement across the spark plug wire connections seems to be in line with the manual. I’ll get an actual measurement shortly.

So I measured the resistance on the coil from positive to negative connections on base and got 0.92 Ohms, which is below what the manual states (3.87-4.73 Ohms), I also measured the resistance between the spark plug connections and got 8,199 Ohms which is below the resistance listed in the manual (12,600-15,400). Does this mean my ignition coil is shot?

The resistor between the ignition 12 volt power source and my 6 volt coil (unknown if dead at the moment) has a broken connection and also measures 1.90 Ohms instead of the stated 1.72 Ohms. I know this is only 10% greater, but the manual doesn’t say a plus or minus percentage. Anyone know where I can find a replacement resistor. It is hard to find a resistor with that resistance and the wattage requirement.
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Old 07-07-2019, 01:34:12 PM
Sbouvia Sbouvia is offline
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Default Onan CCK-MS/1196G

Ok here’s some more information off of my welder/generator. It is an Onan CCK-MS/1196G with a serial number of 127CA08117, on the engine it still has a tag which appears to say 824 67, which I assume means August 24, 1967 build date? On the engine just below the tag is Onan P2214. On my previous post I was provided the build sheet for the unit which was great. I’m just trying to get this thing back to running so I can burn some rod and start welding some stuff. Any other info would be great. Thanks everyone for the help
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Old 07-07-2019, 01:34:23 PM
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Jim McIntyre Jim McIntyre is offline
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Default Re: Onan CCK-MS/1196G Ignition Coil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sbouvia View Post
The resistor between the ignition 12 volt power source and my 6 volt coil (unknown if dead at the moment) has a broken connection and also measures 1.90 Ohms instead of the stated 1.72 Ohms. I know this is only 10% greater, but the manual doesn’t say a plus or minus percentage. Anyone know where I can find a replacement resistor. It is hard to find a resistor with that resistance and the wattage requirement.
1.9 is plenty close, and the difference is probably due to your measurement technique.

If you are trying to fix a 'no-spark' issue, this isn't the cause. You haven't told us what issue you're trying to fix, as far as I see.

(Please keep your posts on a single thread, rather than opening a new thread for every new post...)
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Old 07-07-2019, 01:41:21 PM
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Default Re: Onan CCK-MS/1196G Ignition Coil

I actually just had it apart and wanted to check the coil while I had the case off for cleaning it. There was so much gunk I could not see the timing marks and the carb had at least 10 year old gas in it. I will post an update once I reassemble and see if it fires.
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Old 07-07-2019, 01:41:55 PM
Zeromedic Zeromedic is offline
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Default Re: Onan CCK-MS/1196G Ignition Coil

If you need a new or spare ballast resistor look at 60's Chrysler parts at your local autoparts store. It's been many years, but I believe a 1963 Plymouth Valiant (slant 6) used a 2 terminal 1.6-1.8 ohm (cold) ballast, and after 1972 most Mopars had electronic ignition.

Those used a dual resistor, 1 side 1.5 ohm and the other 5 ohm.

If you want to replace the coil, just use a 12 volt coil and don't use a resistor.

Steve
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Old 07-07-2019, 03:33:42 PM
Sbouvia Sbouvia is offline
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Default Re: Onan CCK-MS/1196G Ignition Coil

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Originally Posted by Zeromedic View Post
If you need a new or spare ballast resistor look at 60's Chrysler parts at your local autoparts store. It's been many years, but I believe a 1963 Plymouth Valiant (slant 6) used a 2 terminal 1.6-1.8 ohm (cold) ballast, and after 1972 most Mopars had electronic ignition.

Those used a dual resistor, 1 side 1.5 ohm and the other 5 ohm.

If you want to replace the coil, just use a 12 volt coil and don't use a resistor.

Steve
So I went and looked at the NAPA site and they list an Echlin ECH ICR12 which has a cold resistance of 0.5-0.6 Ohms and a operating resistance of 1.76 Ohms. Does this mean I take the chance of overheating coil or points until the resistor reaches operating temperature?

---------- Post added at 03:33:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:24:32 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin K View Post
I found the build sheet for your Onan motor, but the scanning job was pretty poor. I made my best guess on the wiring diagram number.
Hey Kevin do you have wiring diagram 606A102? I’m pretty sure that’s what is listed in the build sheet. I assume the 606B102 you provided is for the 12 volt coil as it shows the resistor in between the coil and the points, which would drop voltage from 12 to 6 volts for points but still would put 12 volts on coil. I have a 6 volt coil as I can barely read it but it does show up on the coil.
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Old 07-07-2019, 04:20:29 PM
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Default Re: Onan CCK-MS/1196G Ignition Coil

Echlin ECH ICR13 is what you want. 1.82 ohms cold.

Or visit Ebay for a BFA/BGA clone coil 166-0772 $30 shipped.

The -A and -B diagrams are the same. The coil and resistor in series drops 6 volts across each,
The coil has 12v on top and 6v on bottom so only sees 6v net difference.

Steve
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Old 07-07-2019, 07:36:51 PM
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Default Re: Onan CCK-MS/1196G Ignition Coil

Hey Steve thanks for the response. Based on the wiring diagram the resistor is placed between the ground on the coil and the breaker and cap assembly which is then grounded to the case. I just want to make sure i put it in the right place because it was laying on the ground when I got the machine so,I have no idea what it was attached to.
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Old 07-07-2019, 08:16:53 PM
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Default Re: Onan CCK-MS/1196G Ignition Coil

You are correct in your read of the diagram. 12 volt power to the coil positive, then negative thru the resistor to the points, which grounds one end of the resisitor when closed.

Note that this is not the normal way of doing things in my experience.

Normally I would expect 12v to resistor to coil+, then coil- to points.
But generally Onan knew what they were doing, so all is good.

Also, if your coil primary is really less than 1 ohm then something is wrong.

Steve
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Old 07-07-2019, 08:44:38 PM
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Default Re: Onan CCK-MS/1196G Ignition Coil

Yea that’s what I measured with a pretty nice Fluke model 287 multimeter. I’ll go measure again tomorrow night and hope I did something wrong. I attached meter with the alligator clip ends that it has. So it settled down at 0.92 Ohm. I’m waiting on some carb parts and gaskets for the manifold and then will reassemble next week. Once I reassemble I’ll give it a shot at starting.
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Old 07-13-2019, 08:29:10 PM
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Default Re: Onan CCK-MS/1196G Ignition Coil

Interestingly the wiring diagram on the welder shows the resistor on the positive side of the circuit before the positive terminal on the ignition coil. Now I’m torn as to which location to put the resistor. Also there was a wire coming from the welder box that got disconnected and I am not sure where it was supposed to go. It goes to a what I presume monster resistor. See pictures
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Old 07-14-2019, 06:38:49 PM
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Default Re: Onan CCK-MS/1196G Ignition Coil

So I have rewired everything and just noticed that the push start button is not working. I have since grabbed a new one of those, however when messing with everything I decided to take off the starter relay switch which gets power from the button and then clicks relay over to push power to the starter. This is similar to a standard older car starter relay switch where when you turn the key it flips the relay to let power through big lugs. I tested it with a 12 volt test setup I have and when powering the start lug nothing is transferred through the two large lugs. I cannot find if this motor was supposed to have that and if so should I just get any as there is no numbers on the current one. Second issue noticed was that the starter was engaged on the flywheel the whole time. I have the original starter which has a bendix and no starter solenoid. I suppose best bet for that is to have it rebuilt at a starter shop? Figure as long as I have it out getting new brushes and stuff may not be a bad idea. Pictures of starter relay and starter attached.
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Old 07-14-2019, 07:43:40 PM
Ben Clarke Ben Clarke is offline
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Default Re: Onan CCK-MS/1196G Ignition Coil

You are about to get a ton of replies warning you that the starter solenoid on Onan generators is a specific beast they look like a generic "Ford" solenoid but are wired differently internally. Make sure you have the correct one for your generator.
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Old 07-14-2019, 08:17:38 PM
Sbouvia Sbouvia is offline
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Default Re: Onan CCK-MS/1196G Ignition Coil

The thing I don’t get is shouldn’t the wiring diagram show that? I mean bumping a push button direct to starter would melt any push button due to amperage required right?
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Old 07-14-2019, 09:11:29 PM
Zeromedic Zeromedic is offline
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Default Re: Onan CCK-MS/1196G Ignition Coil

This set didn't come with any starter solenoid when new.

It also isn't an Onan generator. It's an Airco welder that used an Onan engine. Go with the wiring diagram you found attached to it. Onan manuals will be fine for the engine side, but won't cover the welder/generator you have.

Yes, there are starter switches that can carry full starter current. That is what your welder came with. Probably looked like an automotive floor foot switch. (Who remembers those?) Replacing that with a starter solenoid and low current push button is an option.

Steve
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Old 07-14-2019, 09:49:41 PM
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Default Re: Onan CCK-MS/1196G Ignition Coil

Any specific starter solenoid? Should I just bring the one I have to Napa and try to match it? I’d like to keep the lower current push type switch. Attached is my actual wiring diagram with my markups. I think my issue may be wiring the hot side of the starter button to the same side as the resistor, does that mean I am only getting 6 volts to the starter relay instead of 12? When I bench tested the starter relay with a true 12 volt power supply it still didn’t transfer voltage across the bigger terminals.
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Old 07-15-2019, 06:39:07 AM
Kevin K Kevin K is offline
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Default Re: Onan CCK-MS/1196G Ignition Coil

The starter solenoid you have looks like it came from a lawn tractor, probably a bit light duty for starting an exciter cranked welder. I have had good luck using a Standard Motor Product SS567 in my Onans. It has an isolated coil so it can be adapted to most uses.

https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Moto...gateway&sr=8-1
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Old 07-15-2019, 08:31:20 PM
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Default Re: Onan CCK-MS/1196G Ignition Coil

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Originally Posted by Kevin K View Post
The starter solenoid you have looks like it came from a lawn tractor, probably a bit light duty for starting an exciter cranked welder. I have had good luck using a Standard Motor Product SS567 in my Onans. It has an isolated coil so it can be adapted to most uses.

https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Moto...gateway&sr=8-1
Awesome thanks Kevin, starter solenoid ordered. Now to figure out why starter isn’t coming off flywheel. I’m probably just going to find a starter shop in Northern Virginia and see if they can rebuild the starter and let me know if they see issues. I have it apart and it seems the spring that pulls the starter gear back is fairly weak to me. If I spin the starter gear all the way out like it would when trying to start engine the spring doesn’t decompress to pull gear back.
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