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Antique Gas Engine Discussion

NEW TOY EARLY !? 1 3/4hp Jumbo


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  #1  
Old 06-22-2005, 07:58:38 PM
Eric McKenna Eric McKenna is offline
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Default NEW TOY EARLY !? 1 3/4hp Jumbo

Just dragged this one home guy's.......reputed to be VERY EARLY, Serial #8107.......looks diffrent then most of the Jumbo engines I have seen. I am not sure , but, would expect that a webster belongs on it. If anyone can confirm Year built, would be great. Not sure if this is a keeper or not, It is on a sub base, is that unusual on this type of engine? Thanks Harry
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:01:15 PM
Eric McKenna Eric McKenna is offline
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Default other half of jumbo package deal

Interesting little thing!
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Old 06-22-2005, 09:41:10 PM
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Jim Sherman Jim Sherman is offline
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Default Re: NEW TOY EARLY !? 1 3/4hp Jumbo

probably 1911 this one is #B6850

Last edited by Jim Sherman; 06-22-2005 at 10:34:09 PM.
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Old 06-22-2005, 10:27:26 PM
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Mike O Mike O is offline
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Default Re: other half of jumbo package deal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric M
Interesting little thing!
The 2nd engine is a LEE Or Pontiac plow engine. They were used on orchard sprayers and most often the Arlingtom brand. Nice find
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Old 06-22-2005, 10:51:32 PM
Bill In Indiana Bill In Indiana is offline
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Default Re: NEW TOY EARLY !? 1 3/4hp Jumbo

Nice find! I have never seen one of this early model with a mag, all I have seen were battery and coil. (Anyone ever seen one with a mag please let me know) Seems about the time they changed to the later head design with the side exhaust port location is when websters became the standard ignition.

The brass plate is a nice find also, many of these I have seen seem to have not had a plate installed from the factory for some reason. Maybe due to being sold to other re-sellers, or being built on contract? I have seen this style, (those without a name tag) confused with Uniteds and Gallaways sometimes. A lot of folks don't recognize this early model as a Nelson.

The iron base seems to have been an option on Nelson engines, and I suspect was supplied mostly with those engines that were to be mounted on equipment, rather than the common farm/household use. The bases are not very common.

Jim...can I ask how you determined the date on yours? Was it a guestimate, or do you have some paperwork or evidence? I would like to know as there are so darn few records of Nelson engines available, that a confirmed serial # and date is an important find! I would estimate these as no later than 1911, and maybe a bit earlier. But again source material to date them is almost non existant. Nice engines guys! -Bill In Indiana
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:23:13 PM
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Jim Sherman Jim Sherman is offline
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Default Re: NEW TOY EARLY !? 1 3/4hp Jumbo

Bill,
A few years back I ran a question about my engine in GEM, I got two reply's from different parts of the country both saying it was a 1910 Bluffton made by Nelson Bros. That's all the responses so I figured they must be right? I have seen a handfull of these one of which had a Webster some were air cooled. I was interested to see that Eric's is a model "B" since every part of mine has a "B" before a casting number as well as my s/n being B6850.

And you are so right about people confusing these with Galloway's and United's!
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:54:20 PM
Rudy Rudy is online now
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Default Re: NEW TOY EARLY !? 1 3/4hp Jumbo

Hi Bill . The engine is a very early Nelson Bros Jumbo,model B. I have a hopper cooled model and a aircooled model of these engines. they have brass tags. the hopper cooled one is the same as Jim Shermans engine and has a webster mag. If you want to see a aircooled version with a webster mag look on Ted Brookover`s website. There you will find a collector buy name of Ed Payne of Australia. There is a good picture of the engine. The webster mag bracket on these engines is not found in Wendells notebook. there is not much info on these engines,and they are not common. the bracket number is 303K37 which is the same bracket used on early Massey Harris type 2 engines,before they went to the Wico EK mag.hope this sheds some lite on the subject.
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Old 06-23-2005, 12:01:26 AM
Rudy Rudy is online now
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Default Re: NEW TOY EARLY !? 1 3/4hp Jumbo

Here is a pic of the battery ignitor.
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Old 06-23-2005, 12:30:35 AM
Hank Czerwick Hank Czerwick is offline
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Default Re: NEW TOY EARLY !? 1 3/4hp Jumbo

Nelson Bros purchased the property to build their Saginaw facility in 1911. Anything they built before that was produced in Alma Michigan. As the property was purchased bare, without a building, it's probably a safe bet that nothing much was build there before 1912. I'm assuming that from the research that I've done that the first engines built there were the model B's. I've never seen a Model A and I'm guessing that those would have been Alma produced engines. The source of my dates are from a book in the Saginaw Michigan Libray titled "The History of Michigan" by Charles Moore Published in 1915. There is more info on the Nelson Bros on my web site (that I really need to spend some time on).Hank's Nelson Bros Site
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Old 06-23-2005, 11:25:56 PM
Bill In Indiana Bill In Indiana is offline
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Default Re: NEW TOY EARLY !? 1 3/4hp Jumbo

Rudy...You are right, I should have mentioned in my earlier post that the engines shipped to Australia (a bit of an oddity in themselves) are commonly found with a mag. I was focusing on the US when I posted, and forgot about "Down Under Nelsons". I have heard it said that the remoteness of many parts of Australia made mags a requirment as batteries were often not easy to get, or required too long of a trip to civilization get.

On the subject of foriegn sales of Nelson Engines there is a bit of a mystery, or maybe some shenanigans that took place way back when. I know of several collectors in the UK who have Nelson engines having United Tags on them. Somebody someplace must have sold them in the UK as Uniteds. Was it a United/Nelson deal, or some kind of fraud? Who knows.

Jim...Interesting about the Bluffton reference. I had not heard that before. The "B" on your castings is a classic Nelson trait. They usually have the model designation (a letter) as part of the casting numbers IE "B" "C" "CA" etc etc. Not sure about later engines as my observations so far have been dealing with earlier engines.

Hank...Been meaning to pat you on the back for the Nelson web pages...Great Work and research! Here is why I said I doubted it was much later than 1911...

First off, There is some thinking that Nelson was not making their own iron castngs for engines in Alma, and were simply working raw castings sub contracted out to some unknown foundry. It is also thought that they had an office up and running in Saginaw to supervise the plant construction and for sales purposes before the new factory/foundry was built and operating. Following along that line of thinking it is thought they were selling this early model still being made in Alma, with the newer Saginaw location marked on tags.

Some thinking also runs that the design of the head going from top exhaust port to the later side port and some other changes to this size engine happened when they changed over to castings being made at the new factory/foundry in Saginaw. Thus this early model represents Alma production,with possibly the last of these sub contracted parts being assembled at Saginaw very early on until they ran out.

The thinking goes that Nelsons held off making the design changes until they had their own foundry, in order not to have to pay another firm to build the new patterns, or that some disagreement or agreement with the former foundry sub contractor may have forced a need for new patterns/design.

All of this I have never seen any proof of, but in my mind it makes some amount of sense. But, to add more confusion to the mix, I have also heard it said that some sort of patent infringement lawsuit threat caused the head design change. Who knows, was it one reason or the other, or some combination of both reasons, or some other unknown possibility?

If only they could talk! - Bill In Indiana
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Old 06-23-2005, 11:48:56 PM
Bill In Indiana Bill In Indiana is offline
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Default Re: NEW TOY EARLY !? 1 3/4hp Jumbo

Rudy... sorry just realized that I miised you saying you have a hopper cooled one with a mag! Very nice! I have not had the luck of running into one of these yet. -Bill In Indiana
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