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Antique Gas Engine Discussion

"Kill Switch"


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  #1  
Old 07-18-2005, 09:20:14 PM
Smoke Smoke is offline
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Default "Kill Switch"

Hi friends, I need some ideas as to how to make a "Kill Switch" for my F/M Engine. I am hooking it up to a tractor chassis and would like some idea as to how I could stop the engine from the seat of the tractor. Just in the case of an emergency or if something sticks. I have been told that I can wire the Magneto but not sure how to do it. Thanks
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Old 07-18-2005, 09:41:37 PM
Chip Watford Chip Watford is offline
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Default Re: "Kill Switch"

Smoke,I don't know which mag you have but I would think you could run a wire from the output terminal of the mag to a normally open switch ,either a push button or even a keyed switch,and this would ground the mag.I'm sure someone can give more details or correct me if I'm wrong, Chip
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Old 07-18-2005, 09:56:44 PM
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Tanner Remillard Tanner Remillard is offline
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Default Re: "Kill Switch"

I'm with Chip, seems like you could just run the wire from the mag, to a place where you could reach it, place a knife switch, and run the other end back to the engine. I dont know if the length of the wire would effect the performance of the electrical charge, but I dont see why it would.
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Old 07-18-2005, 10:15:39 PM
Gasengn Gasengn is offline
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Default Re: "Kill Switch"

All you need is a push button. Run one wire to the mag and the other to ground ( the vehicle frame ). When you push the button is shorts out the mag.
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Old 07-19-2005, 06:35:02 AM
Peter Peter is offline
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Default Re: "Kill Switch"

I dont think you want to take the 15,000(?) volt hi-tension spark plug wire and run it threw a switch. The FM mag does not appear to have a low voltage wire to ground like the later model mags or a button on the side. Well, I am sure an expert could find a way to ground the coil inside the mag, but I would not mess with the internals of a $$$ working mag. How do you normally stop the engine? I assume you close the mixer needle valve. That is SOP. So, my thought would be to attach a rod to the mixer valve and you can adjust mixture and stop the engine from the seat. Thats how the engine is designed to be stopped, so.....
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Old 07-19-2005, 10:48:16 AM
KidDynamo KidDynamo is offline
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Default Re: "Kill Switch"

What type of magneto is being used on your buggie?

One thing that would work, regardless of magneto type, is to make a "kill switch" like is used on some Maytag engines. As you probably know, this is just a pull rod that pulls a grounding strap of springy steel onto the sparkplug high tension terminal which shorts out the plug.

This could be made from whatever size rod desired and it could be rigged to push or pull to kill, limited only by your ingenuity, which is to say, not limited much! Just be sure to have the grounding occur from the strap and not the rod-end where your fingers are !

The engine would, however, gulp fuel a few times as the throttle went to open position as it tried to maintain engine speed. A few simple tests might be in order to see if there were any reprocussions from this that you didn't like.

I would run the engine and short the plug with a screwdriver a few times and see if you like the results or not. If tests warrant further action, you could make a real nice looking dashmounted pull (or push) rod with a tag and a knob to suit your tastes.
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Old 07-19-2005, 01:54:36 PM
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Forrest A Forrest A is offline
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Default Re: "Kill Switch"

Run a wire from the points, the side tied to the primary of the coil (definitely not the high tension side of the coil) to one terminal of the switch and then a wire from the other terminal of the switch to ground. You end up with the kill switch in parralel with the points.

Forrest
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Old 07-19-2005, 09:34:05 PM
Dan Hodge Dan Hodge is offline
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Default Re: "Kill Switch"

You could use a choke cable and a hinge under one of the head bolts to short out the spark plug. Something like some of the older briggs would do. Simple, safe, and you are able to do this from the drive seat.
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Old 07-19-2005, 09:37:04 PM
Smoke Smoke is offline
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Default Re: "Kill Switch"

Thanks for all of your responses folks. I will try a few of your ideas ansd see what works out the best. Thanks Again !
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Old 07-19-2005, 09:55:24 PM
Joe Morris Joe Morris is offline
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Default Re: "Kill Switch"

Regardless of how you rig up a kill switch you are going to be faced with this problem. If the engine is only turning at a low rpm when you short out the ignition no matter whether it is a low tension or high tension magneto as soon a you do the engine will call for fuel and by the time the engine stops turning it will have washed about all the oil off the rings and cylinder walls. It is always best on any of these old engines to stop them by turning off the fuel except in an emergency.
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Old 07-20-2005, 10:55:33 AM
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Forrest A Forrest A is offline
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Smile Re: "Kill Switch"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke
Just in the case of an emergency or if something sticks.
I think this was the original posters intent... Washing of the cylinder would be a detriment if the cylinder was exposed to the elements for long periods of non-use, i.e. frost, water etc. With the way these motors are used today, wear is minimal. Keep your cylinder oiler full/dripping, change crankcase oil often (if your engine has such a system) and there wont be any problems.

Forrest
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Old 07-20-2005, 01:14:17 PM
Ned L Ned L is offline
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Default Re: "Kill Switch"

Just a quick comment to say that it would be best set up so that only a quick motion (push, pull, turn, or whatever) is required & then you can let go & tend to the 'emergency', as opposed to something that you have to hold onto until the engine has completely stopped.
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Old 07-20-2005, 04:19:34 PM
Peter Peter is offline
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Default Re: "Kill Switch"

If you shut the needle valve the engine will not fire again. And you have now got as safe and proper way to stop the engine, emergency or otherwise. I assume this machine is going to have good breaks and a clutch? My modern diesel tractor has break, clutch and fuel shut-off. Thats all she got, and it osha approved.
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Old 07-20-2005, 04:27:59 PM
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Jebaroni Jebaroni is offline
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Default Re: "Kill Switch"

You would not have fuel washdown if your engine had exposed valves and you could rig up a linkage to hold the exhaust valve open (no suction = no fuel in cylinder). Residual fumes could still cause backfireing though so you might be able to incorporate a grounding strap with a valve linkage and kill two birds with one stone so to speak. However, it usually takes about 5-7 seconds of constant holding to kill my engines due to continual flywheel spinning, but if you rigged up a catch such that the catch held the kill switch in the "run" position but if you hit it, turned it or whatever, it would unlatch and automaticaly revert to the "off" position, you could have that taken care of as well. A little ingenuity and this could be a neat setup!

Jeb
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Old 07-20-2005, 04:28:34 PM
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Jebaroni Jebaroni is offline
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Default Re: "Kill Switch"

Sorry, that should have been intake valve to be held open, not exhaust valve.
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Old 07-20-2005, 04:55:07 PM
KidDynamo KidDynamo is offline
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Default Re: "Kill Switch"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebaroni
Sorry, that should have been intake valve to be held open, not exhaust valve.
I think you had it right the first time, didn't you? Holding the intake valve open would allow quite a bit more fuel to enter the cylinder than holding the exhaust valve open. This is how you have to start a few of my engines. Holding an exhaust valve open will assure no fuel enter but this could complicate design considerably.

Holding either valve open will allow the engine to coast for a longer time than if compression were extant to stop the engine. In an emergency situation, time is of the essence, as they say.

I wouldn't worry about washing the oil off of the cylinder walls. If that were such a big problem, all of the major manufacturers who built engines wouldn't have incorporated this type of kill arrangement into their mass produced engines yet most did this very thing. Testing could show whether or not this a a major concern, one way or the other. Truthfully, I don't really know and never really have liked killing an engine while watching the throttle go full open, but it works.

If an emergency shutdown is all you want, the sparkplug wire end could be of the open-ended clip-on type with a stout piece of cord tied on that could be yanked to pull off the sparkplug wire but this doesn't seem very elegant nor positive, and could leave the magneto coil without a secondary circuit and thus putting the coil at risk.

Ordinarily, I shut down my "big" engines by closing the needle valve. I guess you could rig up some linkage, perhaps with a few universal joints and maybe a right angle gear to shut off the needle valve. Put a "neckers knob" crank nob on it and you could shut it fast!

Free advice is worth what you pay for it, isn't it?
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Old 07-20-2005, 05:48:02 PM
Joe Morris Joe Morris is offline
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Default Re: "Kill Switch"

As far as kill switches were concerned on the mass produced engines I would think they could probably care less about washed dry cylinders and piston ring since they were more concerned about selling engines and the quicker they wore out the better. And it made operating instructions a lot easier by saying. To stop engine press" stop button " and hold until engine stops or something to that effect. Just a though Joe Morris
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Old 07-20-2005, 11:38:14 PM
BobRR BobRR is offline
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Default Re: "Kill Switch"

A kill switch is to stop the engine! washing cylinders or anything else is secondery!and on these old engines they are not going to suck enough gas to cause any damage unless the choke is closed.(If they were worried about dry cylinders they would have put air filters on them!I would ether go with the grounding the plug or if can be done neatly off the points.A petcock (1/4 turn valve)on the gas line that is accseible from drivers seat will work too.GOOD brakes help alot also! Doesnt matter what you do its not going to stop on the next revolution! BobRR
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Old 07-21-2005, 01:28:00 PM
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Forrest A Forrest A is offline
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Default Re: "Kill Switch"

I think that with all (millions) of the cars on the road today that are stopped by turning off the ignition system that it is an approved method.

Oh, by the way, holding the intake valve open on a running engine will win you a Darwin award.

Forrest A
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:20:59 PM
Joe Morris Joe Morris is offline
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Default Re: "Kill Switch"

There is one big difference on cutting off the ignition on a car as compared to an automobile, when you turn off the switch on an automobile the butterfly valve goes completly closed. Otherwise in most cases the engine will diesel.or turn over backwards several times. When the ignition is turned off on an old engine the butterfly valve goes wide open. I don't contend that switching of an engines ignition will actually ruin it. I am speaking from experience that an engine with not real good compression to begin with and a little blowby, thinning whatever oil is on the rings and cylinder with excess gasoline will greatly increase the amount of blow by and loss of a lot of compression. plus some carbon buildup that helps on compression. This is why it is necessary to add a lot of oil through the oiler and putting oil on the rear or the piston while turning the engine over is sometimes necessary to get enough compression to get it started. Closing the needle is of coarse the best way to do it. Just remember the position of the needle valve setting that the engine ws running good at when reopening it to start it again. Joe Morris
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