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Antique Gas Engine Discussion

Sandow (Detroit) Starting


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  #1  
Old 07-24-2005, 08:47:34 PM
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Frank K Jr. Frank K Jr. is offline
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Default Sandow (Detroit) Starting

I'm just about finished with my Sandow engine project. This is a 2 cycle engine much like the Detriot engines. I was trying to test run the engine but had a hard time to get anything out of it. I've tried different timer positions, fuel settings, compression release, etc. I am getting good spark at the plug. At most I can only get a faint "chuck" out of it. Any information on a starting procedure for this type engine would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Frank
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Old 07-24-2005, 09:39:55 PM
J.B. Castagnos J.B. Castagnos is online now
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Default Re: Sandow (Detroit) Starting

First be sure you have good compression, the flywheel should bounce back when turned against compression. If compression is low it will be hard to start, may require spinning with another motor. The timer should fire top center when the lever is straight up, pulling in either direction should allow it to start in that direction. Once it runs and is tuned right, you can move the lever over and pull it against high timing, it should start in the other direction. If compression is good, shut the fuel off and crank it a while, make sure it's not flooded. Two cycles are hard to clear of flooding, the crankcase can hold a lot of fuel.
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Old 07-25-2005, 08:07:25 PM
David Clark David Clark is offline
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Default Re: Sandow (Detroit) Starting

My Sandow was verrrrry tempermental to get running. Do you have a priming cup? To start mine I give it a small amount of primer gas and than pull over center (compression) with a good strong pull ( timing lever in full retard position). Usually starts the first or second time. If it will not continue to run it is most likelly your fuel/air mixture. What type of carb/mixer does it have? I found that even the placement of the gas tank made a differance. My engine has a Luk. mixer and it needs to have the gas tank about 6 to 8 inches above the mixer. Any lower and it won't run. Good Luck!
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Old 07-25-2005, 08:56:47 PM
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Default Re: Sandow (Detroit) Starting

J.B. I have very good compression. My arms are sore. You were correct about these engines being easy to flood. I drained about a pint of gas through the crankcase drain cock. It made its best effort with the timer lever set at TDC (straight up) to about 3 deg. retarded.

David When I got the engine there was/is a drain cock installed in the cyl. I originally thought it went into the water jacket. When I was trying to test fire the engine I realized it went into the combustion chamber after the water tank was filled. After looking more closely at some of my Sandow pics I realized it was a cylinder priming cup. I'll have to correct this. The carb / mixer is a type of fuel injector. It uses the air coming through the intake port to pressurize the injector and squirts fuel into the intake port. I can't see any manufacturer's mark on it. Best description, the top looks like a large acorn nut with fuel bowl below, priming cup on side of fuel bowl and needle valve directly in line with entrance into the intake port. I am working from an old lawnmower tank to see what height will work best before I permanently install a tank. From the pics I have the original tank was installed directly below the water tank, about 2" below the mixer.

It was a little too hot to go outside and play with it today. I'll get things ready for another try later this week.

Thanks for the help,
Frank
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Old 07-25-2005, 10:08:42 PM
JohnMN JohnMN is offline
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Default Re: Sandow (Detroit) Starting

I have one of these, and you are right about the compression. I have always had pretty good luck starting mine. Like Mr. Clark, I also set the timing lever so that it is well retarded, to avoid kick backs. It has a priming cup, but I don't recall ever having to use it. I am not sure whether the mixer is original or not; it doesn't look like the mixers I've seen in pictures of other Sandows. But I suppose it's possible that they used more than one type of mixer over the years the engine was manufactured. On mine, I have the gas tank mounted approximately 6 inches below the mixer, with a check valve at the bottom of the fuel pipe. I don't have a picture that shows the mixer close up, but I will try to take one tomorrow and post it.

The one thing I would say to be sure of, is the spark. This has been discussed in previous threads, but getting a good spark when the plug is lying on top of the engine does not guarantee it will be good when the plug is in the engine, under compression. Is it possible to test the plug, coil, battery, and wires with another engine?
-- John
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Old 07-26-2005, 06:20:58 AM
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Doug Kimball Doug Kimball is offline
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Default Re: Sandow (Detroit) Starting

Frank,
If engine has good compression & bounces back well try this method. Drain crankcase of any fuel residue, play with timing lever until you can kick flywheel in direction opposite the way you want it to run & just get it to spark, once that spot is found fill priming cup, crack valve on cup & roll engine a little to suck gas out of cup rather than just dumping it into cylinder ... sucking helps atomization, then give it a good kick with your foot against compression, engine should fire & start in the intended direction. This is the method used by boatmen as engine sat so low in boat flywheel was difficult to reach with hands. If engine has worn main bearings it helps to screw in grease cups a little to reduce cc pressure leaks along crankshaft before starting.
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Old 07-26-2005, 05:17:38 PM
JohnMN JohnMN is offline
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Default Re: Sandow (Detroit) Starting

Here are some pics of the mixer on my Sandow.
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SandowMixer1.jpg   SandowMixer2.jpg  
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Old 07-28-2005, 09:57:27 PM
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Default Re: Sandow (Detroit) Starting

It was a little cooler today so I gave it another try. I found a covered priming cup and attached it to the cyl. This made a big difference. Pulling the fuel into the cyl did the trick. It would not go at all with the "dump" method. My problem seems to be in the fuel delivery. It will get going on the prime but won't keep running. I'll have to take apart the mixer and go over things again.

A few questions:
Mixer. This mixer (see pics) has a 3/16" dia. tube inside the 1/4" pipe used to mount the mixer. How far should this tube extend beyond the pipe nipple into the port? When I got the engine this was badly mangled. I made a replacement from the dimensions I could retreive from the parts I had, but I may not be correct.

Air Inlet Valve. The valve on the crankcase controlled by the governor. Should this valve be in an open or closed position to start the engine?

Piston Baffle. When I tore down this engine the baffle on top of the piston was on the exhaust side of the cyl. I turned the piston around to get the baffle on the side of the intake port (standard 2 cycle practice). Was I correct in doing this?

BTW. I would hate to run into the fisherman who can kick this engine over.

Thanks,
Frank
Attached Thumbnails
CovPrimeCup.JPG   SandowCarb[1].JPG   SandowCarb[2].JPG   Sandow.JPG  
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