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10e62 generation troubleshooting

StanleyRegister

Registered
Hope you all have some clues, I'm stuck. I had this thing generating back in 1999, and then it sat. The engine is running great again, but I can't get it to make AC. Back then, I had figured out some way to make it pull in the contactor for the emergency feed, and I had it successfully backfeeding my house (briefly). Now I get nothing.

Attached is a wiring diagram that is supposed to match the panel I have. It's got automatic starting circuitry, and a lot of this seems to be managing cranking, battery charging, separation from the mains, etc. I'm pretty sure that hardly any of it was needed, and I didn't run it with a battery. I just can't get it to pull in that contactor any more.

Can I start troubleshooting by looking at the leads right out of the generator? They are marked N, F1, F2, A1, A2, A3, and S1. I poked around at various combinations of these, looking for AC voltages, but the largest I could find was 66v between A1 and A3. I'm supposing that should be 220. Any idea what the various voltages should be on these terminals?

Thanks...
 

Attachments

Vanman

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
06/10/2020
It has been my understanding that these generators can be somewhat resistant to building up. So, in this order, I would try:

Manually raising the speed a bit. Not racing, just rev it up a few hundred rpm or so.

If this does not work, try shunting the “exc. fld. res.” seen on the schematic (Exciter field resistor) while it’s running.

If that doesn’t work, try both at once.

And if still no joy, try cranking it electrically next. The action of motoring the exciter reestablishes the residual magnetism.

If it still doesn’t generate, we’ll have to get deeper into troubleshooting.

Keith
 

nblack

Registered
My First thought is Keith's next to last. Use the battery to crank it, as that will re-instate residual magnetism. The cool thing about this attempt, is that If it cranks by this method, you KNOW the exciter, and shunt field, / brushes are OK. My very next thought is to change out the rectifier, ASAP!!! Then, if you STILL don't have output, the list is a lot smaller to test. Other thoughts, make sure that the brushes are all "loose" in their holders, and the engine is turning at the appropriate RPM. 1200? Also, if it DOESN'T crank, then we KNOW where to start looking!
Please keep us posted.
 

Vanman

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
06/10/2020
I was thinking in terms of easiest to try first, but if you have two or three car batteries at hand you can try that first.

Since you’re already getting some voltage, it seems like it’s close. A little rev and she ought to build up.

The rectifier in this one is only for the trickle charger, which I believe is only energized from normal power.

I would change the rectifier if you are planning on using the charger though.

Keith
 
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Zephyr7

Registered
I would change the rectifier if you are planning on using the charger though.
If it’s only for charging and you’re not using the charging function, disconnect the old rectifier completely. The old selenium rectifiers are all time bombs.

Bill
 

jack0

Registered
Age
61
Hope you all have some clues, I'm stuck. I had this thing generating back in 1999, and then it sat. The engine is running great again, but I can't get it to make AC. Back then, I had figured out some way to make it pull in the contactor for the emergency feed, and I had it successfully backfeeding my house (briefly). Now I get nothing.

Attached is a wiring diagram that is supposed to match the panel I have. It's got automatic starting circuitry, and a lot of this seems to be managing cranking, battery charging, separation from the mains, etc. I'm pretty sure that hardly any of it was needed, and I didn't run it with a battery. I just can't get it to pull in that contactor any more.

Can I start troubleshooting by looking at the leads right out of the generator? They are marked N, F1, F2, A1, A2, A3, and S1. I poked around at various combinations of these, looking for AC voltages, but the largest I could find was 66v between A1 and A3. I'm supposing that should be 220. Any idea what the various voltages should be on these terminals?

Thanks...
So your hand cranking to start?
My 5m61 will not properly excite unless the field resister is bypassed.
The voltage is roughly the same also. 60 volts.
The manual plants have a momentary switch, for this purpose.
With battery cranking, it should pick right up.
 

Vanman

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
06/10/2020
They make 8 volt golf cart batteries...

Or, 3 x 12 volt batteries at 36 volt will in reality work just fine as well...

Yes, manual plants have a button to bypass the exciter field resistor. Shunting that was I believe my number two suggestion. ;)

Keith
 

StanleyRegister

Registered
Smoley hokes! Keith, you are the MAN. I pulled on the throttle lever a little and raised the RPM for 2 or 3 seconds, and now it's working! The contactor for the emergency load pulled itself in without me even noticing, and there's light bulb juice on one of the 110 legs and 253 volts on the meter! See a few seconds of video at
. Now I have to find some controllable load and tweak the governor setting, & I guess the exciter resistor, to get the voltage spot on.

Thank you everybody!
 

Vanman

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
06/10/2020
Awesome! I love these plants. Still hope to have one (some?) someday.

Also note that the generator voltage will decrease a tad as it warms up. Some even have a thermostat to shunt a portion of the field resistance above a certain generator temperature. So you’ll want to let ‘er run for a good long while before making any adjustments.

This generator is inherently regulated, and should maintain a practically constant voltage across the load range so long as the engine is in good condition and the carburetor and governor adjusted well for good speed regulation.

Reactive loads, like motors, will cause some voltage droop.

Looking forward to the results!

Keith
 

StanleyRegister

Registered
I found a Tripolet 300v panel meter on eBay that's almost identical to the other 2 meters on the panel - now that hole is filled.

Ran it again today - it still needed a brief RPM boost to put the voltage up. Might that issue go away after a bunch of running? I imagine it wasn't a problem in the days that the unit auto-started on power line loss, as there would have been nobody present to tweak the throttle.
 

Vanman

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
06/10/2020
When it starts electrically, the exciter is used as a cranking motor, and so is already heavily excited by the battery when the engine starts, so it would always generate when started electrically.

The manual plants have a button that shunts the exciter field resistor to give it enough of a boost to build up. You could fit yours with a button, or give the throttle a little goose, whichever you find to be the most convenient. ;) For a manual start, residual magnetism is relied upon for the exciter build up. Longer running likely won't add any more to the residual magnetism, although this model of generator does substantially increase exciter excitation under load. So letting it take a good load may help, or it may not....

I forgot in my last post- make sure that your governor speed setting is good before proceeding to any voltage adjustment. Speed will directly effect voltage, so set that correctly first.

Sounds like a nice score on the meter.

Keith
 

StanleyRegister

Registered
I'll need to get a little mechanical tach to put on the tail of the armature shaft. Or maybe there's some kind of inductive automotive dwell/tach? I did find a little 12v battery that can power a timing light.

Here are the RPM instructions from the manual that you sent.

1593803586305.png

Do you think that the 100w load they mention would be across one leg of the output, and the 115v should show on that same leg? I'm a little confused where they say that, at full load, the 1250 RPM : 115v should change down to 1200 RPM : 115v - I'd have guessed that the voltage would droop too.
 

Vanman

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
06/10/2020
You can use a frequency meter as rpm is cycles per second x 20 on a six pole generator. So 62-1/2 no load, 60 at full load.

At such a light load, both lines should measure the same anyway. I’m guessing the small load is for Automatic plants, to make them start and run. 100 watt is essentially no load.

The manual is likely also written with a two wire, 115 volt plant in mind. I would do all of your measurements and loading at 230 volts, across both lines. You can likely bump the voltage up a bit so you’re at more like 120/240, the modern standard nominal voltage. 115/230 is perfectly fine and adequate as well, so long as you don’t have a lot of voltage drop in the your wiring.

The generator is compounded such that increasing load increases exciting current. It is designed to keep the voltage fairly constant across the load range, even though the governor necessarily has speed droop. Pretty cool.

Keith
 

nblack

Registered
Awesome! congratulations! Very nice score on the meter too, BTW. Some of those old meters are an old "standard size" that has been obsolete in industry for decades. So finding the right meter is VERY lucky!
As far as the residual magnetism goes, I would crank it with either 4-8 volt batteries, or (easier to get) 3-12 volt batteries. The exciter would therefore be PROPERLY refreshed regardless of how long the unit sat without being cranked. It is another testament to the absolute brilliance of the design team that built these beasts. If you ever need to get inside the Waukesha (affectionately know here on the 'Stak as a "wookie" ) you will bear witness to ANOTHER level of incredible engineering. Obviously "overbuilt" was blase' or standard in their vocabulary at that time in Waukesha's history.
 

Zephyr7

Registered
. If you ever need to get inside the Waukesha (affectionately know here on the 'Stak as a "wookie" ) you will bear witness to ANOTHER level of incredible engineering. Obviously "overbuilt" was blase' or standard in their vocabulary at that time in Waukesha's history.
They’re known as “thunder pumpkins” in the industry too since Waukesha paints things orange at their plant. There are lots of them running stuff in the petroleum industry. Famously reliable, similar reputation to Cat.

Bill
 

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