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2 New Old Onan CCK

blousteau

Member
The 4 cck is a 68 and the 5 cck is a 61. Nice score. Better have some flowers or candy when your Wife comes home!
She wasn't that mad, being I only spend $180 for the pair. Her line of questioning went mostly toward, what's wrong with them and how much are you going to have to spend in parts.

So far, about as much as I paid for them. Who is really counting anyway? Well, she is because I put $1000 into the last one and I got it for free.
 

blousteau

Member
As much as I know I should, probably not. The cylinders still have crosshatching visible from the factory. This must have been a very low hour unit that has sat for a very long time. I am going to take some measurements with my bore gauge to be sure, but probably just a light honing for the rings. It doesn't even look to have a ridge at the top to ream.
 

blousteau

Member
It is decided now that the contractor engine will be mated to the 5CCK gen end / controls. Now hopefully someone can answer this one for me: I am strongly considering using the ignition system from the contractor unit vs transferring the points, etc from the battery run unit.

How complicated is it to get the control box from the battery cranked one to still battery crank / charge / function but use the ignition components from the pull start one? Or will I only be able to start it with the battery crank and have to use the stop button to kill it vs the regular toggle up to start and toggle down to stop?
 

AlanR

Member
I think all you need is a relay with contacts that are closed when NOT powered. Power the coil of the relay from the 'ignition' lead of your battery controls, connect the relay contacts across the 'stop' button on the pull start engine. Any time the battery controls want the gen running, the relay is energised and the contacts are open. When the battery controls want the gen to stop, the relay is de-energised, contacts close, engine stops.

Alan
 

Vanman

Subscriber
Yes, and include an override switch in series with the relay contacts so that you can still hand start it when the battery is missing or dead. :brows:
 

blousteau

Member
Thanks guys. Duh, I was really overthinking this one! Now, next question which I think I know the answer to already but: Would you pick the points ignition setup or the flywheel magneto setup?

Either way, I do plan on ditching the vacuflow and putting the rope start back on so it can be both electric and pull start, which makes the flywheel magneto is the best choice to me. What about coil replacements for the mag setup? Are there any readily available replacements? I know I can get points, condensers, and coils for the points setup very easily.
 

Vanman

Subscriber
I’m not sure about the availability of the particular Onan parts, but, given the choice, I prefer a magneto since it does not require any external power to operate. Much like a mechanical diesel, as long as you have a way to crank it, you can get it to run.
 

blousteau

Member
I am trying to figure this one out. It has a magneto but also has a coil in a box feeding the plug wires with a small circuit board attached to it????
 

Vanman

Subscriber
Ah. Circuit boards. That pretty well goes over my head then. I have heard of magnetos that use electronics, but I do not know anything about them. :shrug:
 

AlanR

Member
I am trying to figure this one out. It has a magneto but also has a coil in a box feeding the plug wires with a small circuit board attached to it????
The magneto coil just provides power to a more-or-less conventional ignition coil. Don't know about the circuit board, the parts list and the wiring schematic don't show it - a picture would help.

Alan
 

blousteau

Member
Here are some pics, I can not find this one in any of the diagrams I have either! I do not have it back together enough to spin it over to see if this one actually works, but if it has been or can be replaced with one of the modern / cheaper Onan coils I would be all for it! I can not even find this one online under any of the part numbers.
 

Attachments

blousteau

Member
FYI, This unit does not have points. I could always swap over the points setup from the other motor, but not having to ever deal with the points would be pretty cool! But also not ever being able to find a replacement coil for this one, would not be cool at all!
 

Zephyr7

Active member
I’m going to guess that that circuit board is an oscillator to drive the coil, with the coil acting as a step-up transformer to drive the spark plugs. A primitive electronic ignition system, in effect.

You could probably rebuild that board if you can’t find a replacement. The brown cylinders are old carbon composition resistors. Those tend to change value over time. Carbon film is the modern replacement, although in this circuit I’d use ceramic composition resistors to replace the big resistors on the board due to impulse concerns. The yellow cylinders are film-type capacitors and May well still be good, but they’re easy and cheap to replace if needed.

The small black cylinders in the middle are diodes. Probably can be replaced by more modern 1N5408 devices. The black squarish thing is probably a transistor. Hopefully you can read a part number off of that, otherwise we’d need to figure out the circuit schematic to determine what you need to replace it.

The silvery round part next to the “transistor” is a bit of a mystery. It’s labeled “CR1”. It MIGHT be a diode. A schematic would help to figure that out too.

Maybe someone has a factory schematic for this part? If that’s available, rebuilding the board should be pretty simple.

Bill
 

blousteau

Member
I can easily get all the parts to rebuild the board if needed, that is not a problem (if I can get all the values). I've never see this one, and can not find it in any of the wiring diagrams / parts manuals. Hopefully someone can dig up a diagram that has this somewhere.
 

Kevin K

Subscriber
I tried to find build sheets on these. The 5CCK came up empty but I found the 4CCK. The sheet references a 602B234 wiring diagram, but that is not available.

Billy, any chance you can find the 602B234 wiring diagram? I'm curious how this works.
 

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Zeromedic

Subscriber
That is an interesting ignition setup. I suspect it is for magneto only models and uses the polarity change from the magneto coil to provide timing signal.

Never seen one before, and can't find any info. Notice the "G26 Onan Breakerless Ignition" option on the build sheet. I'll keep looking.

On the pcb components, Zephyr7 is correct. (1 number wrong)

CR1 is tucked up under the yellow capacitor.
CR2,3 and CR6,7,8 all silicon "bullet" diodes in 2 rows below CR1

Black square thing is labeled CR4 and the silkscreen was originally for a TO3 case transistor. Back in the 60's this would likely have been an NPN 2N3055 or a PNP 2N2955 100V 15A power transistor.

TO220 case equivalents were cheaper when they came out, and if the mounting tab was bonded to the collector, the center lead could be cut off, base and emitter leads bent 90deg, and drop in used for a TO3.

Silver round component is labeled CR5 and is what was called a "top hat" casing diode. These could be any type of diode, but considering that all the other diodes are silicon/epoxy, this is very likely a Zener.

If you can read a 1N number off the side of CR5, I have plenty of old semiconductor data books and can look up the voltage and current.

Now I'm feeling old. Never could afford new 2N3055 when I was a kid. Scrounged used CK722's from transistor radios, and power transistors from car radios.

Steve
 

Kevin K

Subscriber
Wow, the CK722 germanium PNP transistor bring back memories from when I was young.

Just for yucks and grins, I checked my database for all CCK's with spec number 6695. Several popped up, all with the "G26 Onan Breakerless Ignition" option. They referenced drawings 602B234, 602B235, 602B236, and 602B237, all of which are missing from my database. So it looks like I struck out with that idea.

I'm guessing four of the diodes rectify the magneto output to DC, charging the two 0.68mfd 200VDC capacitors. The CR4 TO-220 device is a SCR that dumps the capacitors across the primary of the coil when it is triggered. I would like to see the circuit, but unless someone can come up with the drawings we are out of luck. Maybe blousteau could trace out the board?
 

blousteau

Member
That will really be a possibility. I am taking it off the coil to clean it up a little so I will have access to the front and the back of the board. Worst case, I can take a pic of the front and back and post it here.

I am hoping someone can find those diagrams. It would be really cool to have the schematics. Figures I would end up wanting to use the ignition setup that no one has the diagram, schematic and I probably have the only board left in existence!
 

blousteau

Member
FYI this is the motor off the 4CCK, so the fact that you found it under a 4 is not surprising. The block of the 5CCK was is really bad shape. This will be a frankenOnan, with the motor and ignition from the 4 and the control box and gen end from the 5 with both battery and pull start.

Once back together, I will have one from the 60s, 80s, 90s, 2000s. I just need to find one each from the 70s, 50's and 40's!
 
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