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Alternate electronic ignition systems, convient list of links

Dale Russell

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Last Subscription Date
08/29/2019
Patrick, that sounds like a slick System that you have in your Jeep. I had a Propane set up on a Chevrolet Pick Up that I put over 150,000 miles on after I changed it over to Propane so I am familiar with using Propane. sounds like they have the automatic changeover figured out also. Thanks for sharing. Even though I am 91 yrs. old, I still find that kind of technology interesting. Gotta keep the old Brain Active. Thanks again. Dale
 

lokay5

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Last Subscription Date
01/11/2015
If there's a nuclear explosion close enough to me to render my electronic ignition useless, whether my generator will run or not is a moot point. Additionally, electronic ignitions are so cheap now that all you need to do is keep a spare on hand. EMP blows your ignition system? No problem, put the spare in and keep on keeping on.
I think perhaps you should read a little more about an EMP event. The "nuclear explosion" that could take out your electronics (and possibly the power grid) takes place at an altitude of about 250 miles

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/super-EMP.html
 

Patrick

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Last Subscription Date
10/25/2019
Patrick, that sounds like a slick System that you have in your Jeep. I had a Propane set up on a Chevrolet Pick Up that I put over 150,000 miles on after I changed it over to Propane so I am familiar with using Propane. sounds like they have the automatic changeover figured out also. Thanks for sharing. Even though I am 91 yrs. old, I still find that kind of technology interesting. Gotta keep the old Brain Active. Thanks again. Dale
Yep, you get some strange looks from people here when you top up and go inside to pay for £7 worth of petrol, and £25 worth of propane.
"What pump, sir?"
"6 and 7"
"Which car is that?"
"The big black Jeep"
And they're sitting wondering what's going on.
Half of them seem to thing that the propane tanker comes to THEM to fill up his tank, not that he is refilling their tanks... shows you what the sort of people who work in Petrol stations did in school...
 

lokay5

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01/11/2015
My two Onans run on propane from our tank, but here in the US, propane for highway use is taxed, and is only dispensed into a vehicle through a meter that adds road tax.
There isn't a propane dealer within 50 miles of me that can re-fuel a highway-driven motor vehicle.:eek:
 

gnucklehead

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Last Subscription Date
07/13/2019

len k

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Last Subscription Date
12/12/2018
If it's real, Sounds like has a very short range.

Just a guess but seems would have at LEAST ~6 magnitudes less RF energy pulse than a nuke would radiate.
 

len k

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Last Subscription Date
12/12/2018
I still think man-made non-nuclear versions of EMP likely have almost zero power in comparison to nuke devices. Effects would be VERY VERY VERY localized, since in comparison they don't have any power to speak of.

Interesting that our diesel gens may not be as EMP/solar-storm proof as we think. Seems EMP has caused di-electric breakdown/punch-thru of insulation on the windings...... 1/2 way down this link, Russian test 184. Although these gens may have been attached to cross country powerlines.

Also interesting that there are 2 "components" to EMP. E1& E3 .....Respectively: a BRIEF high frequency RF component and DC component. Seems RF component kills electronics ( transistors) , and DC component overheats long powerlines/transformers

--------------------
Interesting Quotes from link:

"The E3 component of the Test 184 detonation (caused by the movement of the Earth's magnetic field) began rising immediately after the detonation, but did not reach its peak until 20 seconds after the detonation. The E3 pulse then decayed over the next minute or so. The E3 component only affects equipment connected to long electrical conductors."

"The E3 component of the EMP that caused the failure of the underground power cable was 1300 nT/min (nanotelsas per minute) in the Karaganda region during the first 20 seconds after the detonation. For comparison, the solar storm that shut down the entire power grid of Quebec on March 13, 1989 had a magnitude of 480 nT/min, and caused the Quebec power grid to go from normal operation to complete collapse in 92 seconds. Solar storms on other occasions have been known to produce disturbances of 2000 nT/min, and a solar storm on May 14-15 in 1921 produced a disturbance of 4800 nT/min."

"If the United States W49 warhead used for the Starfish Prime test had been used in Test 184, the E3 component would have been more than 5000 nT/min in the Karaganda region. According to recent studies, a disturbance in the present-day United States of 4800 nT/min would likely damage about 365 large transformers in the U.S. power grid, and would leave about 40 percent of the U.S. population without electrical power for as long as 4 to 10 years due to the loss of large transformers that would have to be custom-built (many in other countries, especially if power was not available for the two U.S. plants that are able to make these transformers)."

It is known from several sources that the EMP from Test 184 started a fire in the Karaganda power plant, but virtually no details have been released about this event. It has sometimes been stated that the power plant was completely destroyed, but the only thing I have found to substantiate this is a sentence in the official notes taken of a meeting between Russian scientists and U.S. scientists at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in February 1995. One sentence in those notes about EMP damage is, "Destruction of the power supply at Karaganda."

"The EMP from Test 184 also knocked out a major 570 kilometer long overhead telephone line by inducing currents of 1500 to 3400 amperes in the line. The line was separated into several sub-lines connected by repeater stations, each repeater station was 40 to 80 kilometers apart, with most being closer to 80 km. There were numerous gas-filled overvoltage protectors and fuses along the telephone line. All of the overvoltage protectors fired, and all of the fuses on the line were blown."

" The fuses in the communications lines were one ampere fuses of type SN-1. The E1 component of the pulse was reported to have induced currents of 1500 to 3400 amperes in the line, but apparently this did not blow the fuses.This is consistent with my own personal experience with very short, but extremely high-current, pulses in ordinary fuses, and with the data published by major United States fuse manufacturers. An ordinary one ampere fuse will carry sub-millisecond pulses of thousands of amperes without blowing. It is heat that melts the fuse element, and very short pulses, even of extremely high current, do not have enough time to melt the fuse element. The SN-1 fuses used in Kazakhstan were rated to withstand 3600 amperes of a pulse with 5 microsecond rise time and a 10 microsecond fall time. The current pulse induced by the E1 component of the EMP would probably have been much shorter than this. The SN-1 fuses were apparently blown by the solar-storm like E3 component of the pulse, which induced currents of 4 amperes on the sub-lines, and which lasted until all of the fuses blew. The slow E3 pulse did not reach its peak until 20 seconds after the detonation."

The EMP from Test 184 also damaged radios at about 600 kilometers (360 miles) from the detonation and knocked out a radar about 1000 kilometers (600 miles) from the nuclear explosion. ( sounds like RF effect of EMP, E1)

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/test184.html

However I say to get these WIDE spread effects you can ONLY get them from a nuclear explosion ( exstream power)
.
 
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lokay5

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01/11/2015
I was not referring to a non-nuclear device. I was citing the effects of a high-altitude nuclear detonation.
 

len k

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Last Subscription Date
12/12/2018
I was responding more to this.
POPULAR MECHANICS estimates a basic e-bomb weapon could be built for just $400...

Now, ain't that interesting :salute:

http://www.superconductors.org/emp-bomb.htm
However a Nuke EMP is a very real REAL THREAT , but I'm guessing not much probability of it. I think we would crush whoever did it out of existence. And they KNOW it!!! Problem happens if they do it in a way that's untraceable.

I suspect flight electronics in mill stuff has good RF shielding for other reasons, and the crafts are too small for E3 (DC) effects.
 

len k

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Last Subscription Date
12/12/2018
Interesting report on EMP threat to the USA , dated 1999

https://www.nipp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/EMP-Paper-Final-November07.pdf

page 13 onward is very interesting

Russian EMP Capabilities, Anti-American feelings, a legacy from the Cold War, remain strong in Russia. .......Russian Duma members threatened a U.S. Congressman with a nuclear EMP attack against the United States. Congressman Roscoe G. Bartlett.... records this encounter in 1999: We met with three of our Russian counterparts ..... On May 2, [1999] the Russians chastised the United States for military aggression in the Balkans and warned Russia was not helpless to oppose Operation Allied Force.

"Lukin said, ‘If we really wanted to hurt you with no
fear of retaliation, we would launch an SLBM [submarine aunched ballistic missile]and detonate a single nuclear arhead at high altitude over the United States and shut down your power grid and communications for six months or so.’ Shabonovadded, ‘And if one weapon wouldn’t do it, we have some spares
"

In testimony before the House Armed Services Committee, Dr. Wood observed that: “Soviet strategic strike forces characteristically have featured weaponry well-suited to efficient EMP generation over exceptionally wide areas. That EMP strike component exists today in the Russian strategic order-of-battle, moreover likely at its maximum Cold War strength. I very confidently predict that it will be one of the last features of Soviet strategic nuclear weaponry to be retired from the Russian strategic force structure”

"...Such a blast would simultaneously take out of action almost all of the satellites orbiting above the United States. It is thought that a nuclear blast over the territory of the state of Nebraska at an altitude of 300 km would be able to affect up to 90% of the territory of the United States by the action of its EMP. "

"At the present technical level it is practically impossible for non-nuclear means to concentrate energy that is in any way comparable with that of a nuclear burst.”

"Russia very clearly takes the threat of EMP attack extremely seriously. There have been many statements by Russian military and defense industry officials that their new strategic missiles are completely hardened against EMP effects."

I say Interesting thing is likely would be NO direct blast damage. But I think we have anti-ballistic missiles that would be fired at it.... since we would have have to assume it was a nuke intended on landing on USA and creating direct blast damage.

WOW this is a dangerous radio black out... "During nuclear EMP attack, ion density within the EMP-generated air layer changes drastically. This change will severely hamper wireless communication using radio frequency (RF) and microwave (MW) bands. The interruption on RF/MW communication can last, depending upon the recombination rate between free electrons and ionized air particles, for about one hour. ...modern society and all military hardware could become completely blind, deaf, and losing of hearing within seconds after the nuclear EMP attack. "

A key conclusion of the EMP commission report was that, “A determined adversary can achieve an EMP attack capability without having a high level of [technical] sophistication.”
 
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len k

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Last Subscription Date
12/12/2018
Little interesting detail about EMP..... utility grid might not always be the target.

Although no details about super-EMP weapons are given in open publications by anyone who knows about these weapons, there is a strong implication in the statements of those who have studied the reports about those weapons that the enhanced gamma radiation weapons would have a comparatively low total energy yield. This means that weapons with an unusually intense E1 output would not cause a large E3 output. If this is the case, then they would be very destructive to electronic devices, but would not produce the large DC-like currents that would be likely to destroy large numbers of the largest transformers in the electrical power grid.


"....there is a strong implication in the statements of those who have studied the reports about those weapons that the enhanced gamma radiation weapons would have a comparatively low total energy yield. This means that weapons with an unusually intense E1 output would not cause a large E3 output. If this is the case, then they would be very destructive to electronic devices, but would not produce the large DC-like currents that would be likely to destroy large numbers of the largest transformers in the electrical power grid.

There is a possibility of a separate class of advanced super-EMP weapons that can be made using multi-stage thermonuclear techniques. In 1987, a former highly-skilled Los Alamos nuclear weapons designer wrote an article in Scientific American in which he stated that some types of thermonuclear weapons can be designed where up to 20 percent of the weapon yield would be in the form of gamma radiation. ........ This Scientific American article implies that it is possible to make weapons that are capable of causing both a very large E1 and and a very large E3 component of the EMP....."

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/super-EMP.html
 
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Zephyr7

Registered
Electronic ignition systems are more EMP resistant than you’d think since they have to be: the ignition pulses generation interference that is similar in nature to what would be seen by the same system from an EMP event. As far as I know, no normal vehicles have been formally tested for susceptibility though.

The thing that effects the large transformers isn’t generally a high voltage pulse, or RF, but the slow rise time DC-like energy. RF can’t propagate well on a power line due to inductive and capacitive effects. Slow signals can generate a DC offset (this is how the Quebec problems in the solar storm started), and that DC offset saturates the transformer core making it look more like a short circuit. Think of a kid on a swing, back and forth. That’s AC. A DC offset would be like a very strong wind, pushing the swing hard towards one side of the cycle. Eventually the swing is almost parallel to the ground, with no where to swing back and forth. That’s a little bit like saturation in an electromagnetic core in a transformer or inductor.

Newer communications systems based on fiber optic networks are less susceptible to EMP events than the old copper systems. The fiber optic cables themselves are completely immune — they’re pretty much just plastic and glass — but the electronics on the ends and the regen (amplifier) sites every 60ish kilometers apart are at risk. How at risk is an interesting question and difficult to get good answers to, since a lot of that info is classified. Carrier class telecom equipment is pretty well shielded, but for EMC reasons to make it play nice with other electronic equipment, not specifically for EMP resistance, but the two are somewhat related.

I’m not really worried about a Russian attack. They aren’t crazy, and have a lot to lose if they tried something and they know it. All the old MAD stuff still applies with developed countries that think rationally. China is more of a concern, but they know they’d end up collapsing their own economy too, and that would be very bad for them. Their history of what the population does to their leaders when their leaders fail them is pretty brutal, so they aren’t particularly likely to start something like that either.

I’d be most worried about a Mideast state or so rogue nutjob or group of nutjobs. Those are the guys that have limited resources (compared with the counties mentioned earlier), but have some smart, determined people with ideologies that promote crazy stuff like this.

BTW, if anyone has a link to that Russian report mentioned in another post I’d be interested to see that. A lot of stuff that really should have stayed secret leaked out when the Soviet Union fell.

Bill
 

len k

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Last Subscription Date
12/12/2018
From ......EMP Effects on Vehicles .. https://www.futurescience.com/emp/vehicles.html

Even vehicles without an electronic ignition or other electronic components are not completely immune from EMP ..... gen winding insulation punch-thru ....by E1 (RF), not E3 (DC), E1 is the fast pulse ( RF)


"I also must re-emphasize the fact that during Soviet high-altitude nuclear tests over Kazakhstan in 1962, rugged diesel generators having no solid state parts were burned out by E1 EMP. In an important international electromagnetics conference in 1994, after the breakup of the Soviet Union, General Vladimir Loborev delivered an important technical paper in which he stated, "The matter of this phenomenon is that the electrical puncture occurs at the weak point of a system. Next, the heat puncture is developed at that point, under the action of the power voltage; as a result, the electrical power source is put out of action very often." This illustrates that even vehicles without an electronic ignition or other electronic components are not completely immune from EMP." The Soviet military diesel generator problems were definitely related to the nuclear tests, although those diesel generators were probably connected to long external wires during the nuclear tests.

"Donald R. J. White, who was one of the pioneers of electromagnetic shielding technology, said in his last book, "The 100 year old practice of grounding the negative terminal (sometimes positive) of the battery to the vehicle frame and use of the frame as the return in circuits should be ended. The reason is that the circuit loop area is somewhere between 100 to 1,000 times (40-60 dB) greater than a replaced shielded twisted-wire pair. This means that all the potential EMI (electromagnetic interference) picked up from coupled transmitter radiations, local and distant, from radar and especially from EMP will be reduced accordingly. For less than $100 in wiring increase plus labor, the EMP hardening impact will be many times rewarded." "
 

len k

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Last Subscription Date
12/12/2018
A guy is selling protective EMP sheilding cloth to cover and protect your Gen ( or car) ~ 98% shielding over EMP E1 (RF) frequencies of interest.

I'ld wouldn't spend money on it. If EMP hits you won't be able to get fuel to run the gen, till utility power and fuel supply infrastructure comes back online... may be 1/2 year

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIivyKyndAE
 

Zephyr7

Registered
Even vehicles without an electronic ignition or other electronic components are not completely immune from EMP ..... gen winding insulation punch-thru ....by E1 (RF), not E3 (DC), E1 is the fast pulse ( RF)
I suspect that was due to external wiring. More wiring = more capture area, but there are some limits due to the inductance and capacitance of the wiring which essentially forms a low-pass filter, limiting max possible risetime.

The reason is that the circuit loop area is somewhere between 100 to 1,000 times (40-60 dB) greater than a replaced shielded twisted-wire pair. "
Are you sure that quote is correct? 100 times is 20dB, 1,000 times is 30dB. It would be unusual for a technical person to be off by two to three orders of magnitude like that, which makes me wonder if there is something else going on or if other things are also inaccurate there.

In some ways the steel frame helps to shield internal stuff too, but with all the openings in a typical vehicle, I don’t know how much it can help with energy coming in in the low microwave frequency range.

Bill
 

len k

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Last Subscription Date
12/12/2018
I didn't check the numbers, just read it for general info.

Hard to find good info on EMP , the interesting stuff is all likely classified..... no obtainum.

Interesting that gen windings are vulnerable to the fast E1 (RF) pulse. Makes me wonder if they would be as vulnerable if you placed a disconnect or plug VERY close to a stored gen ( so wiring external to metal gen wouldn't act as so much of an antenna)

One of the links talked about adding a split ferrite on wiring to try to keep the pulse out of car wiring ( or your gen's )

But it's all academic, if EMP hits you won't be able to refuel for a LONG time.


BTW, if anyone has a link to that Russian report mentioned in another post I’d be interested to see that.
this one maybe ? https://www.futurescience.com/emp/test184.html

few other interesting EMP links
http://www.futurescience.com/emp/emp-protection.html
http://futurescience.com/emp/
https://www.futurescience.com/emp/EMP-myths.html

Defining E1, E2, E3 ( E1 peak power density of 6.6 megawatts per square meter.)http://www.futurescience.com/emp/E1-E2-E3.html
 
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zuhnc

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Last Subscription Date
12/08/2019
Not related to EMP, per se, but the DC saturation of transformers, and creating a short circuit, sounds a lot like the regulating action of the Magneciter. zuhnc
 
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