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Alternate electronic ignition systems, convient list of links

Zephyr7

Registered
Not related to EMP, per se, but the DC saturation of transformers, and creating a short circuit, sounds a lot like the regulating action of the Magneciter. zuhnc
Similar, yes. A device known as a “saturable reactor” exploits this property using a DC bias current, in a way. Magnetic amplifiers also work this way, and I think that’s how the magneciter is designed (haven’t looked in a while though, so I don’t know tor certain).

Bill
 

Jim McIntyre

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
07/10/2019
^yep - the magnismoker uses saturable reactors, as did a number of the common military gensets of that era.

With this thread likely to be the catch-all for electronic ignition, it's probably worth a mention of the Onan 166-0785. I bought a bunch of JB sets about 10 yrs ago and most of them had been fitted with this module. For those unfamiliar, it looks like this:



Yeah - that seems stupidly expensive, but they do pop up for a lot less if you scrounge for a while.

On my JB sets, the ring magnet was mounted on the rear of the generator shaft, just outside the rear bearing and the module fixed nearby.

It gets wired up like this (see Post 9) in BZ’s old thread on electronic ignition:

https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73526

I’d STILL like to see Onan’s instruction sheet for this module, but as far as I know, it’s never surfaced on this site. I don’t know, for example, if the JB was even listed as an application for this module.

I’m not making any claims about it being better that the original points. I’d never have made the change myself. But so far, this module has been reliable on at least 4 sets.
 

Zephyr7

Registered
Hard to find good info on EMP , the interesting stuff is all likely classified..... no obtainum.
Yes, it IS classified. I’ve had to ask before as part of some projects. The ground level energy density info is classified. I know what document the info is in, and I asked and was specifically told that yes, that chapter remains classified and will likely stay so. Interestingly enough, most of the document is not classified and anyone can go read all the other stuff in it. Not having the energy density info makes it difficult to design shielding for things since you don’t know how much energy you’re starting with. Note that this “energy density” info is NOT the same as the “volts per meter” stuff you often see.

I wouldn’t trust that blanket you mentioned to do much. What I can tell you is that you need several conductive layers separated by dielectric to do the job reliably. Think cage within a cage with an insulating layer between. The only way around that requirement is to make your shield out of welded plate of some thickness, but it’s cheaper to use layers of foil or screen.

You also need to have anything coming or going protected, and this is usually done either with special feedthrough capacitors or tunes acting as waveguide below cutoff.

If you want to do some cheap protection that is pretty effective, wrap your important gizmo with aluminum foil, all the way around. Then a plastic bag or paper towel, then a second layer of foil. The foil doesn’t need to be glued or welded or anything fancy, if you have a decent overlap between the edges. The overlap acts like a capacitor, and capacitors look like short circuits for high frequency AC. Put the wrapped item inside of a steel ammo can and close the lid.

The usual way things get protect is more basic shielding and then put the shielded thing in an underground bunker. You don’t have to be very deep underground, either, but the ground has to go over the top of you so a basement with a wooden structure on top isn’t enough.

I’m not so sure about flashing over windings, but it would depend on the energy levels. The usual stuff that is at risk is semiconductor junctions, which are pretty delicate compared to things like insulation breakdown in windings. There is a lot of other stuff that comes into play too, things like physical properties of materials that have to be overcome before damage can occur.

The usual thing that makes EMP kill stuff that is otherwise thought to be protected is that the initial very fast risetime pulse can either slip through or kill a protection device, and then the later, more reasonable pulse can get in and cause damage. Regular lightning protectors can handle the later pulses, but are too slow for the first, very fast protection like avalanche diodes can clamp the fast pulse but then are spent and can’t protect against the later pulses.

It’s nasty buisness. There are some NEMP rated protectors out there, but they only work if they’re part of complete system. Used without the rest of the shielding, all you have is a very excellent lightning arrestor, but not a full NEMP protection system.

Bill
 

len k

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/12/2018
Maybe ??? see bottom of post #38.

E1 peak power density of 6.6 megawatts per square meter.
Doesn't talk about how it's spread over frequency though, (power spectral density).


Likely don;t have to worry much about EMP proofing your gen ....... " For nearly everyone, though, the first real problem they will face will come from the loss of power to the pumps that supply their water -- and with the computers that maintain the only local food supplies ...infrastructure that we depend on for water, food, fuel
 

Zephyr7

Registered
Maybe ??? see bottom of post #38.

E1 peak power density of 6.6 megawatts per square meter.
Doesn't talk about how it's spread over frequency though, (power spectral density).
Pretty sure that info hasn't been released, and there has never been any private nuclear testing so anything else is theory. I'll ask again if it's still classified next year.

Remember that there is also frequency spectrum and dwell time to deal with. That stuff makes a BIG different in what stuff is going to be susceptible to damage.

Likely don;t have to worry much about EMP proofing your gen ....... " For nearly everyone, though, the first real problem they will face will come from the loss of power to the pumps that supply their water -- and with the computers that maintain the only local food supplies ...infrastructure that we depend on for water, food, fuel
Sanitation and refrigeration are the biggies. Everyone in the northeast and much of the midwest go a little taste of this back in August 2003. No power = no municipal water supplies. The big water treatment and pumping plants are too big for backup generators to be practical, so they have ringed transmission (115+ kv) lines into the facilities from the grid. In really large-scale outages, the treatment and primary pumping stations go down (note that these are different from the smaller distributed pumping stations that often have backup generators, but will have no supply water to pump in a large outage).

It's not the computers that are the problem for food storage, it's that without power, there is NO refrigeration. Many of the big regional cold storage warehouses rely on MOBILE generators (I think it's dumb too, but it is what it is), so in a big outage they don't necessarily all get generators. The really big issue is that few facilities will have more than around 48 hours or so of backup fuel supplies, so if they can't get refueled in that amount of time, they go dark even if they DO have a generator. In a real large-scale outage like would be caused by a major NEMP event, refueling would be a very real problem. Even back in 2003, we were having trouble getting reliable fuel deliveries to telecom sites, and we had priority over places like grocery stores! The issue was that EVERYONE needed fuel deliveries, and there are only so many tanker trucks to make the runs, and driving was slow. I remember one driver saying "I have 2,000 gallons of fuel on board, and all the signals are out. I'm driving SLOW AND CAREFUL!!!" Can't say I blame him :D

I think most people in the western world really have no idea. In the early 90's Armenia had rolling blackouts for TWO YEARS, due to problems with their natural gas supply. Most people in North America would have zero idea what to do in a situation like that, and even those that did know how to handle it would find it very difficult.

A large-scale NEMP event would be devastating. That's why it's such a big threat. The problem is that most people can't comprehend what that would be like, so they don't think about it. What I find especially stupid is the people that argue against trying to put in any kind of protection against the threat.

Bill
 

len k

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/12/2018
Relatives up in boonies of Maine have a taste of no electricity, for short periods. They are at end of a 25 miles "extension cord" ( utility). Up there, snow storms usually drop trees that bring down power lines, so they planed their house to do OK without it for a while. Wood stove is their primary heat source. Propane stove for cooking. Electric fridge and well though.

Was Christmas and they had a week long outage. We went up with ~ 20 gal of drinking water. Later we helped them bury their food in a box in snow bank behind house. Could melt and drink the snow if had to. Gets dark at 4pm, wanted bright light, so we rigged a propane lantern ( ~ 100 watt brightness) inside off a 20# BBQ tank for light WHILE we were awake, plan was it would instantly go out the slider door if we smelled propane.

EMP would be a more of a problem for them in summer... food spoilage, drinking water. Propane fridge would help, but then there's the problem of where to get the food. Military would be hard pressed to deliver it to all of USA, even if they had it.

Guess EMP is too big to prepare against, and falls in category of we have to depend on gov/military to make sure it doesn't happen, by being ready to CRUSH to death anyone who did this to us. And letting everyone KNOW it ....... a version of MAD. Even the 60's basic fallout shelters have been abandoned as too costly and I guess they only were intended to last less than a week ( food and water, radioactive fallout loses 90% of its lethal intensity in the first seven hours and 99% of it in two days).

"There is no greater, nor more legitimate, primary responsibility of any government than to protect its citizens."
.
 
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len k

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/12/2018
Was thinking about EMP early this morning, it kept me up worrying. Won't have to worry about emp proofing your gen. There won't be any fuel, food or water once transport/supply infrastructure breaks down, supply trucks won't run. We will be in the stone age fast.

The biggie will be getting food. Large grocery stores seem to only have 3-4 days or maybe 1 week of food in the building. You see them run out FAST when their people go on strike.

EMP is so damaging it will have to be considered a MAJOR act of WAR, and worthy of invoking some type of nuclear response, if we can figure out who did it.
.
 
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Zephyr7

Registered
EMP is so damaging it will have to be considered a MAJOR act of WAR, and worthy of invoking some type of nuclear response, if we can figure out who did it.
Yep, which is why I think such a device is only like to be used in one of two cases:
1- there is already a MAJOR conflict underway between major powers, like a World War III or something close. Basically in this case, no one cares what the response might be because stuff is already so bad.
2- some little nutjob terror group pops one off to bring on bad times. These guys don’t care about the response, because they WANT the bad times to come.

I’m much more concerned with the second scenario since I think the first is pretty unlikely currently. Essentially the old MAD doctrine doesn’t really work against some little nutjob, it only works against other major powers that have something to lose.

You don’t want to be in any urban area, or close to one, in the event of any major catastrophe. Rural areas are much better in those situations. It would still not be a fun time though.

Bill
 

lokay5

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Last Subscription Date
01/11/2015
"...we have to depend on gov/military to make sure it doesn't happen, by being ready to CRUSH to death anyone who did this to us."

That won't prevent it from happening. And how will we "CRUSH" anyone without Command and Control?
It will also be inop. Of course our subs will still be capable of launching but at who? Unless someone claims to have done it, there's no way to identify the attacker.
 
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lokay5

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01/11/2015
"...radioactive fallout loses 90% of its lethal intensity in the first seven hours and 99% of it in two days"

Source please.
 

lokay5

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Last Subscription Date
01/11/2015
"Won't have to worry about emp proofing your gen. There won't be any fuel, food or water once transport/supply infrastructure breaks down,"


We live in a semi-rural area, about 20 minutes from Grants Pass.
I try to keep our 325G propane tank topped off. I have an NH and a BF that will run on gasoline or LP. Both make 120/240V. We're on a well (240V) and septic, and have a well stocked freezer...
...and plenty of ammo...
I figure we'll be okay for a few weeks, if we're lucky, but then what? And all of that won't do us a bit of good if we're not at home.
An NEMP would (will?) be very, very ugly. Exciting and interesting but very...mmm... "un-good".
 

Jim McIntyre

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
07/10/2019
Please excuse my post #42 above. For some reason I posted thinking this was a thread about convenient links for electronic ignition systems. I don't know what got into me...

:rolleyes:
 

zuhnc

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/08/2019
Originally, yes. I have put modified Pertronix systems on both a CCK and an LK (battery ignition, both). One can put the sensor and magnet about anywhere, accounting for timing, of course. This has been an interesting discussion, however. I have looked into other commercial and home-built systems for my sets, but a Pertronix, in whatever form, seems to be the easiest to modify and install. I even have one, specifically built by Pertronix for the application, in my 1951 Ford 8N tractor. Works very well. Small modules for chain saws and like engines would probably work well on the magneto-equipped engines. zuhnc
 

Zephyr7

Registered
"...we have to depend on gov/military to make sure it doesn't happen, by being ready to CRUSH to death anyone who did this to us."

That won't prevent it from happening. And how will we "CRUSH" anyone without Command and Control?
A lot of that stuff is hardened, especially the satcom stuff. The military takes this VERY seriously. It’s the civilian stuff that takes a “yeah, whatever” attitude to it.

Bill
 

Zephyr7

Registered
"...radioactive fallout loses 90% of its lethal intensity in the first seven hours and 99% of it in two days"

Source please.
Depends on what got exposed, steel holds on (stays dangerous) longer than concrete, for example. But radioactive fallout isn’t as bad as most think. Remember that both Hiroshima and Nagasaki are big populated cities again, and it didn’t takes decades or even years to happen. It’s a myth that nothing would be habitable for millennia.

Bill
 

len k

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/12/2018
I believe Mill C^3 stuff (command, control, and communications) is very hardened, that happened in the 80's. Lot of engineering help wanted ads back then around Boston. We're a heavy mill defense company area. What good is having a nuke if you can't send the message for it to launch?

2 weeks ....read that on web ....... is likely the iodine isotope, it's absorbed and used by the body, so a direct internal threat. Heard isotopes with a short 1/2 life are pretty active emitters. Lot of people in Chernobyl had to have thyroid removed, cancer, it absorbs iodine. Scar is called a Chernobyl necklace. Other isotopes have long 1/2 lives measured in many 10's of years..... strontium 90, ect.


Yes the discussion did wander off...... Since it's my thread ....it would be ok with me if a moderator removed emp related posts of this thread, and it's likely a good idea to do so. Maybe add link to EMP stuff in separate thread called EMP???

It did occur to me afterwards that other people could post alternative ignition ideas in future and that this thread could become an important source of general info for Stakers. Sorry for letting it wander.


.
 
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zuhnc

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/08/2019
Not all who wander are lost :D. I, for one, enjoyed the little side trip. Learned things I didn't know about. I lived in Norfolk, VA for 30 years - huge military area, with the worlds largest navy base. Did generator work there with the company I worked for. Assisted in a couple of "hardened" generator installations and start-ups for the military communications outfits on the navy base there. Quite the facilities and equipment needed for protection. Now, back to your scheduled program! zuhnc
 

lokay5

Registered
Last Subscription Date
01/11/2015
Jim McIntyre
"Please excuse my post #42 above. For some reason I posted thinking this was a thread about convenient links for

electronic ignition systems.
I don't know what got into me..."

Oh, I'm ever so sorry. I must have misunderstood.
I thought this thread was regarding the replacement of points ignition systems with
electronic ignition systems.
I just thought I'd mention the vulnerability of
electronic ignition systems
to the effects of Electromagnetic Pulse.
So, please, in the words of Steve Martin...Well...
EXCUUUSE MEEE! ! !
 

Warwagon

Registered
Jim McIntyre
"Please excuse my post #42 above. For some reason I posted thinking this was a thread about convenient links for

electronic ignition systems.
I don't know what got into me..."

Oh, I'm ever so sorry. I must have misunderstood.
I thought this thread was regarding the replacement of points ignition systems with
electronic ignition systems.
I just thought I'd mention the vulnerability of
electronic ignition systems
to the effects of Electromagnetic Pulse.
So, please, in the words of Steve Martin...Well...
EXCUUUSE MEEE! ! !
Thanks for answering the original question of mine :O

Sometimes another point of view (pun intended) is educational. When part of the answer is "Classified"... :eek:

Regardless of how admins may want to chop this up for a "reference" on electronic systems I suggest the reasons a "antique points" system has advantages is preserved. It's a legit question and some very good answers by many were provided.
 
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