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Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent!

Scotty 2

Registered
Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

Hello all.
I have a question. What happens to all the heavy metals in the batteries when the batteries reach the end of their life?
And what about the byproducts that occur in the manufacturing of these batteries?

Cheers Scott
 

len k

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/12/2018
Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

Don't think lithium ion has heavy metals.

Ahh....
"Since Li-ion batteries contain less toxic metals than other types of batteries which may contain lead or cadmium[54] they are generally categorized as non-hazardous waste. Li-ion battery elements including iron, copper, nickel and cobalt are considered safe for incinerators and landfills"
 

Scotty 2

Registered
Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

Hello Len,
Thank for that information. What is the reference for it?
The word 'generally' is a bit of a double edged sword and what about the byproducts during manufacture? Is the same statement true for the battery banks they're talking about in the stories you posted a link to?

There is plenty of literature out there warning of the 'whole of life' use of Lithium Ion technology at this time (that is the important bit.....at this time)
I seem to remember lots of environmental groups sprooking the benefits of the compact fluorescent bulb to the environment until it was found out about the mercury in them.

Cheers Scott
 

Mikey NY

Registered
Last Subscription Date
02/28/2016
Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

Very interesting article len. Thanks
 

JSWithers

Registered
Age
63
Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

Batteries are hazardous waste but have an EPA exception to be handled as Universal waste along with fluorescent bulbs and some other things. This is to encourage proper recycling without having to go through all the hassle and paperwork to get an EPA ID number and the hazardous waste manifest for documentation, transportation, etc. This allows the waste to be handled seperately so it won't count against a businesses generator status. And it allows you to transport these things to the local household hazardous waste facility without hassle. Otherwise you would be required to have a hazardous waste transporters license. And that's complicated.
 

Ken Karrow

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/10/2019
Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

Everyone overlooks a simple idea. Build two reservoirs, one higher than the other. When solar or wind output is high pump water into the upper one, when low release through a hydro plant. Therefor storage and the only natural resources used is fuel for the Cats and some pipe, motors and pump and generating system, surely less than building the batteries. Though with the current administration you can NOT count hydro as renewable energy but you should get an exception for water you have already pumped. It is also possible that we will get enlightened administrators that will realize that hydro is renewable as long as it rains or snows.
 

len k

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/12/2018
Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

There's a place in western Mass that does that, pipes connect 2 naturally occurring lakes.

If you were to make a lake it would take a huge footprint of land to store enough water and a good size hill to do that.
Land= $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Doesn't work where there are no hills, like in the wheat fields of Wisconsin .
Or where there is a shortage of water like out west , Texas.
 

Scotty 2

Registered
Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

Everyone overlooks a simple idea. Build two reservoirs, one higher than the other. When solar or wind output is high pump water into the upper one, when low release through a hydro plant. etc etc etc
Hello Ken,
You mean like the Snowy Mountain Scheme here in Australia?

Cheers Scott
 

Ken Karrow

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/10/2019
Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

The only water use is evaporation and some places that wind farms are located, eastern CO, Texas panhandle, western KS, parts of NE and the Dakotas and WY, land is relatively cheap. It is unsuitable for crops and as grazing land requires 20 - 40 acres to support 1 cow and her calf till it is weaned for one year. Hence at 20 acres the income before expenses per acre even with high cattle prices $25 per year. $500 calf divided by 20 acres. This does not allow depreciation on cow, taxes, fencing, labor, horses and maintainence, windmills and repairs, depreciation on the bull, etc.
 

ronm

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
07/10/2019
There's a lot of "coulds", "maybes", "possibillities", & "don't know for sures" in that very optimistic & speculative article...
 

len k

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/12/2018
Artical said 53 foot trailer sized bat pack had ~4 megawatt-hr capacity. That's only ~ 1 megawatt for only 4 hours. Drop in the bucket, but it's a start. One modern nuke plant is at least 1000 megawatts 24/7.
 
Last edited:

dalmatiangirl61

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
07/10/2019
Artical said 53 foot trailer sized bat pack had ~4 megawatt-hr capacity. That's only ~ 1 megawatt for only 4 hours. Drop in the bucket, but it's a start. One modern nuke plant is 1000 megawatts 24/7.
At that size I'm pretty sure they will be recycled:O
 

BobRR

Registered
GE has new multi fuel generators that make up to 9MW. They are super efficient and are made to work with renewable generation. So if the battery back up cant handle the load these Gen. can be brought on line as needed in just a couple of Min. Bob
 

len k

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/12/2018
Problem with solar is that's likely too long to prevent a brown/black out if a cloud comes by. The backup gens would have to sit there hot and spinning ready to output power in a fraction of a second. So CO2 footprint is not as good as everyone hopes for, since you've got to keep the backup gens ready to go on line instantly.
 

BobRR

Registered
Problem with solar is that's likely too long to prevent a brown/black out if a cloud comes by. The backup gens would have to sit there hot and spinning ready to output power in a fraction of a second. So CO2 footprint is not as good as everyone hopes for, since you've got to keep the backup gens ready to go on line instantly.
len The Generators don't do anything until they are needed. A emergency generator for a hospital can be up and running in a couple of seconds. They keep the coolant and oil in these engines at temp and circulating but nothing else is running. Bob
 

len k

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/12/2018
I was thinking of steam tubine gens.

Even a couple seconds is too long for utility power, would you tolerate voltage brownouts every time a cloud came by for wind fluctuated.
 

Scotty 2

Registered
len The Generators don't do anything until they are needed. A emergency generator for a hospital can be up and running in a couple of seconds. They keep the coolant and oil in these engines at temp and circulating but nothing else is running. Bob
Two totally different generators. To compare a backup generator is a hospital to a generator supplying power to parts of your country is like comparing the time it takes to start and run an engine in a moped/lawn mower to an engine in an ocean liner.
Output of one generator is measured in kW and the other is in MW. I'd love to read about a generator, who's output is measured in MW, that can be brought on line (including starting) in seconds or even minutes.
 

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