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George White from Ontario now in Poland -Help needed

DrAndrzej

Registered
Hi from Poland, long time no see (very long.)

I collect and repair hot-bulb tractors, stationary engines, trucks, it takes my free time after work and kids.

After many years my steam-dream came true. I'm looking for any information about my George White traction engine, model, year, power.

On the firebox is number 1487, engine 1402, and that's it... Engine found near Eden, Ontario. The boiler needs much work, welding, etc. other things need care but it will live.

On FB I've got some info FedEx from Scanlan Tractor & Auto Restoration: The engine was in Port Rowan, Ontario for years. I remember the engine running when I was a kid, Leroy's brother Ken painted it, a friend of mine bought it from the family there, and it went to Strafforville Ontario for a couple years and he sold it to Noah which is where I got it from.

Now my problems to solve - what I ask You for:

1) registration of boiler in EU ( :mad: ) is almost impossible because it needs documentation from inspections, a plate with info -power of engine, year, number of engine and boiler, max working pressure. Unfortunately, I have no such plate, no idea if it was produced, so I need a photo of such or similar engine plate. I will make my own with the required information, make it look old, etc. The problem is that I also need documentation, even a copy, with drawings of the boiler, and if this boiler would be stationary, how much steam it can produce in one hour.

In Poland we have only railway steam boilers or stationary, nothing in between. Without this info, this engine will be a garden monument or used only privately. We have two registered traction engines and a roller and I fight with office UDT/TDT/TUV to make a fourth.

2) What power has this engine and boiler?

a) BOILER total length of boiler with open doors, Smokebox and without door in firebox - all-steel =149.21 inches. OD of round parts =33.23 inches, ID is the same as OD minus 2x thinner of steel (0.39??) =~32.4 inches. Firebox height from top to bottom boiler wreath =45.43 inches, width =31 inches, depth=42.5 inches. Round parts measured outside with smokebox without cast doors diameter 33.23 inches has length 95.28 inches, without smokebox 71.26 inches. Smoke tubes = flame pipes 54 PIECES, length 77.95 inches, diameter=1.89 inches inside.

b) ENGINE Diameter of bore 231 mm, stroke, measured max-min 252mm. In inches, it could be: bore 9.4, stroke 9.92
diameter of big flywheel 39 inches, left small 24.2 inches.

c) id like to restore fabric steel wheels + rubber - remove welded truck wheels but what diameter it should be and what thickness of steel?

d) looking for old pictures of this engine or this model , I've got one BW but no idea if this is it, using the suggestion of John Perusello that it is from the Milton Steam show (Steam Era) archives maybe there is someone with better quality to compare the details - it will be kind of a pattern to find idea of the final restoration look

That's for a beginning ;-) in the shortest possible way, of course I have more questions but that's for a start. Thanks in advance for reading this long post, I've written this part from the most important and immediate matters for start - trying to register boiler in PL or abroad.
 

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Craig A

Moderator
Staff member
Age
68
Last Subscription Date
12/20/2015
Re: George White from ONT in Poland -Help needed

Welcome to STAK...…. :clap:

Witamy w STAK
 

David Hoover

Subscriber
Re: George White from ONT in Poland -Help needed

There wasn’t an info plate but all the boiler info will be stamped on the boiler. Look on the back head or possibly on the side of the fire box. Looks like it will be covered by paint.
 

casertractor

Registered
Age
36
Last Subscription Date
04/24/2018
Re: George White from ONT in Poland -Help needed

Welcome back to Stak Andrzej,

Like I said over on Facebook there is a good chance that your engine and Mr Adams engine are one and the same. Some of the gas tractors and steam engines back then had cut off wheels. A lot of steam engines had cut off just on the front with the original wheels on the back or vice-versa.

I think the hp that is painted on the back of the water tank (tender) is wrong as I think your engine is a 17 or 20 hp? Maybe some of the Ontario steam buffs could chime in and give you some more info on your engine if possible.

Hopefully your engine will be able to come back up to Ontario/Canada and attend the show here at Milton someday. Next year (2020) is the 60th anniversary of the show and club;). Please keep us up to date with the restoration process.

John
 

David Stirk

Registered
Ontario (provincial) registration numbers on Traction engine boilers were stamped usually on the back head. The number will be refered to as the Five point number. It will begin with 5._ _ _ _ _ _ and most likely have 6 digits following. Those numbers were assigned to boilers being inspected in Ontario and through out the years. Regretfully boilers which have been dormant for many years and no copys of inspections retained by owners over the years will likely never be found in the newer digitized records.

The TSSA (technical Standards and safety Authority) here in Ontario inspect and certify our traction engine boilers. They are supposed to hold all the records but without the 5. number it will not be found and even most of the time with it it may still be unrecoverable if it hasnt been inspected in some time. Hope this helps point you i the right direction but finding those records here is poor at best. If the engine were being restored here in Ontario and wanting to put back into legal operation there is a process to re register given recreation of the blueprints, pressure calculations, ultrasonic thickness testing etc. Very slow, expensive and difficult to say the least.

Here is a picture scanned from Reprint of George White catalog. Not the best but looks similar.
 

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DrAndrzej

Registered
Re: George White from ONT in Poland -Help needed

Thank You!

For those who read all especially :)

Restoration process started, boiler is naked, no other sign than number of boiler on the top of firebox, 4 digits wrote before and that's it.

Is it possible to look at similar documentation - maybe the same type of boiler in Inspection office, scan it, - find similar using my measured details?

We try to inspect it as a stationary boiler, I do not weld anything without inspection office.

Of course, I've measured ultrasonic thickness, the worst are 6.7 mm, many weldings down the firebox, but under Inspection, I will try to remove weldings and patch the right places.

What about the BW photo, is there a possibility to get better quality of it?

Is it possible to know the power and the model of my Traction Engine - from catalogue or just from Your knowledge?

And what about the diameter of front, I can make a metal ring but what diameter and thickness? 12 mm enough?

John, if I restore it, id be happy to be back for a moment to Your exhibition, but the cost of sending it from Poland there and back is extremely high, I've bought this engine without visiting Canada, just from pictures because of $$ (and because of having no practice outside EU in journeys, renting cars, hotels or sth like that .. ), but if any international/national/any other program/grant will be announced and my engine would be worth it in Organizers opinion - Id love to be there. Or maybe first personal and then with equipment. I have more agricultural stuff, for example Ursus C45 hot bulb, small Landini Testacalda 35 hot bulb, soon LANZ 25... which here is a magnetic for audience. So Steam+ Hotbulb is enough for 40 container, and back is enough place for engine with open crankshaft which is wanted but not bought here.

But first of it - Inspection and registration of boiler any possible way home or abroad - without this public use is a 5 years of prison possible in EU.
 

DrAndrzej

Registered
Re: George White from ONT in Poland -Help needed

Is it possible to ask them to find the same boiler and just mke a photo without names, adresses - only technical things? iI think that there is a hope to find the same or quite similar?
 

G Willikers

Sponsor
Last Subscription Date
05/01/2019
Re: George White from ONT in Poland -Help needed

DrAndrzej,
Attached are some sheets from George White. I have never seen your engine, but understood it to be a 25? There were many in Ontario and there are still many running, some still with original boilers. Also, Oliver's Boilers at Auburn, Ontario has built several new welded boilers for GW 25hp.
For front wheels, the measurements I have are 45x12 inches.
Have you spoken to InterLok, Ltd. of Pila, Poland? That company works from an old railway shops and has done considerable mechanical and engineering work.
There have been traction engines taken to Poland. Several years ago, a Goodison engine was shipped over. I chatted with the man but cannot remember his name. So there should be engines there for reference or in Deutschland.
For thickness, how widespread is the thinning? 6.7 mm is barely above the minimum allowable for stayed surfaces, at least in Ontario.
Not sure if any of this helps, but best wishes with the engine.
Note - these diagrams are for engines with 2-1/2-inch tubes.
 

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GreasyIron

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/28/2019
Re: George White from ONT in Poland -Help needed

G Willikers, Do you have any 20HP info?

I don't know anything about George White engines, but, on quick math the numbers provide in the original posts seem closer to a typical [at least US] 20HP boiler than 25HP. Likewise the bore and stroke seem a little more in the 20HP range to me.

It is interesting that a previous owner would choose a 20-25 rating unless pieced together with some parts from each. That ratio doesn't come out in my mind for a nominal-belt, nominal-drawbar, nor drawbar-belt of any steam engine or tractor.
 

GreasyIron

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/28/2019
Re: George White from ONT in Poland -Help needed

Well, to guess at a build year, my 25 sidemount is #1500, built in 1925.
Do you know your tube size & count, or bore/stroke, or barrel or firebox dimensions off the top of your head?

If his is a 1923, I'd suspect close enough in year that comparing your 25HP could pin down whether his is a 20HP or a 25HP.
 

DrAndrzej

Registered
Re: George White from ONT in Poland -Help needed

my boiler is a little bit different, smaller, all dimensions written in first message, try to send some more photos of boiler now, maybe it helps with identification, but I need to place photos - no idea where to attach a link, not direct into post?
 

DrAndrzej

Registered
Re: George White from ONT in Poland -Help needed

Bolier number 1487, engine 11402, on FB discussion year identified 1916, but it would be great to find match in some literature, catalogue or company records.
 

Farmall_Doctor

Registered
I have 54 tubes measuring 1.845" ID (so, 2" OD?)
Engine stroke is 11". A 25 engine should be 9.5x11".
At the smokebox the barrel diameter is approximately 32.5"

That barrel dimension was a quick ID measurement
 

GreasyIron

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/28/2019
Re: George White from ONT in Poland -Help needed

I have 54 tubes measuring 1.845" ID (so, 2" OD?)
Engine stroke is 11". A 25 engine should be 9.5x11".
At the smokebox the barrel diameter is approximately 32.5"
That sure looks like the same boiler measurements. Yet bigger engine measurements than his!

Did GW make any "specials?" Perhaps he does have a 20-25, referring to engine-boiler? :shrug:
 

GreasyIron

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/28/2019
Re: George White from ONT in Poland -Help needed

Another possibility occurred to me. Could GW's 20 & 25HP share width and barrel diameter; varying only length. The prints in post 8 look like about 6" longer firebox, and over 20" longer tubes than measured in the original post.
 

DrAndrzej

Registered
Re: George White from ONT in Poland -Help needed

George, GODISON is about 30 km away from my home, running once, hidden by owner deep. INTERLOK PILA is under bankruptcy process and will not do anything, have problems with finisch prepaid boiler to locomotive. Man mentioned by You sold some traction engines in Poland, a few years ago, there is another George White from him about 50 km, but bigger boiler than mine, with waved firebox inside, almost running. I've measured it and for example, rear wheels mine 150, his 162 cm? longer boiler, ovoid doors to firebox, some other differences. it is 25 like on some drawings/photos, differences are more - f ex rear suspension has 2 springs on sides more on upper sections.
 
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