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George White from Ontario now in Poland -Help needed

George Hoffman

Sponsor
Last Subscription Date
04/28/2018
Greasy you bringing up another good point here . I have no idea what a new boiler for that GW would cost . However the Re and Re could be expensive if it has to be done by a certified boiler shop. Lets say a boiler is 30 K USD then the transplant could be another 20 K USD. The Osage 110 new boiler plus re and re was 150 grand about 5 years ago.
cheers.
 

DrAndrzej

Registered
There is no secret in this
Announcemet was found via net, ive asked who can go, see, make photos, a company (importers cars from Canada to Pl) with a guy living in canada offered contact.

There was no inspection, only a visit, portion of photos, without deep knowledge.

It was bought under condition of possibility of transport to PL or DE. Becouse of width and height it had to be dismounted, left suspension, wheel, governor, coal and water boxes, wooden stand(?) some pipes,all this is written below.
On the day of transport everything was packed on truck and transported to agency - and came back - this part of story was writtenn earlier. Agency was agreed by guy in Canada, by phone, send some pictures an measurements, weight more or less exact, evrything was calculated to get into this containergand fits unmounted with a few cm space only. Ive got message and some photos from the road transport, point of start, time. After ~3hrs
Ive got a call that agency do not want to pack it into the container, they've been sending for this guy cars for years but this was too much weight, possibilities of safe mounting such weight in the container, take respinsibility for the machine and container on the sea.

Guy in Canada who arranged all this things started to look for another possibilities of transport. Found another agency, simeone who pack this parts, and this transport happened.

it took 1.5 month-a guy in Canada found someone who can mount safetly all this stuff into the container and sign responsibility of this transport,mounting,etc.

Into the container was packed boiler on front wheels and right rear with some wood under left fragments of suspension, than left wheel lying, big wooden box with coal/water boxes, governor..., engine crankshaft, clutch, wooden podest, steel frame under the podest, suspension shaft some small parts packed togeather.

Costs: visit+phitos+buy+demounting+transport to the agency 12K$, sea transport with all to my place 6, 2k$
There is a possibility missing something in this calculation but nothing big

This is a whole story .

On previous message You write: transplant. Its demounting engine and everything from old to new boiler? To this part i do not need anything in my opinion, all work can be done here. If the boiler was different - than fixing whole stuff would cause some problems, but having enought steel under screws i think i do not need pay for it


I think that i need add here that ive been looking a something original but small/compact. This just fits... Nice shape, from esthetic point i like this machine, it has nice proportion. Before that ive got some photos of falsificates in eu, self made tractions offered as originals. This GW is 2.55m wide wheels but center is wider.
 
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David Hoover

Subscriber
There is no secret in this
Announcemet was found via net, ive asked who can go, see, make photos, a company (importers cars from Canada to Pl) with a guy living in canada offered contact.

There was no inspection, only a visit, portion of photos, without deep knowledge.

It was bought under condition of possibility of transport to PL or DE. Becouse of width and height it had to be dismounted, left suspension, wheel, governor, coal and water boxes, wooden stand(?) some pipes,all this is written below.
On the day of transport everything was packed on truck and transported to agency - and came back - this part of story was writtenn earlier. Agency was agreed by guy in Canada, by phone, send some pictures an measurements, weight more or less exact, evrything was calculated to get into this containergand fits unmounted with a few cm space only. Ive got message and some photos from the road transport, point of start, time. After ~3hrs
Ive got a call that agency do not want to pack it into the container, they've been sending for this guy cars for years but this was too much weight, possibilities of safe mounting such weight in the container, take respinsibility for the machine and container on the sea.

Guy in Canada who arranged all this things started to look for another possibilities of transport. Found another agency, simeone who pack this parts, and this transport happened.

it took 1.5 month-a guy in Canada found someone who can mount safetly all this stuff into the container and sign responsibility of this transport,mounting,etc.

Into the container was packed boiler on front wheels and right rear with some wood under left fragments of suspension, than left wheel lying, big wooden box with coal/water boxes, governor..., engine crankshaft, clutch, wooden podest, steel frame under the podest, suspension shaft some small parts packed togeather.

Costs: visit+phitos+buy+demounting+transport to the agency 12K$, sea transport with all to my place 6, 2k$
There is a possibility missing something in this calculation but nothing big

This is a whole story .

On previous message You write: transplant. Its demounting engine and everything from old to new boiler? To this part i do not need anything in my opinion, all work can be done here. If the boiler was different - than fixing whole stuff would cause some problems, but having enought steel under screws i think i do not need pay for it


I think that i need add here that ive been looking a something original but small/compact. This just fits... Nice shape, from esthetic point i like this machine, it has nice proportion. Before that ive got some photos of falsificates in eu, self made tractions offered as originals. This GW is 2.55m wide wheels but center is wider.
You’ve had quite a learning experience that’s for sure. As your aware, there’s a White pretty much the same as yours getting a boiler right now. There’s a few boilers around the same as yours as well, all bad. Some wheels may turn up in time, but whether they would get sold to Europe is another story. Maybe if your set on continuing with the mechanical repairs, you might consider using a modern steam source and running the engine from a steam hose. Even if you rented it periodically. In time, you may get lucky and get a boiler in it. Or maybe get involved enough to build your own boiler, who knows. The only sure thing tho, is with this engine, it will cost you a fortune in both money and time. I’m sure you’ve provided a very informative outline as to what can happen when entering the steam hobby to some that may consider it.
 

George Hoffman

Sponsor
Last Subscription Date
04/28/2018
Dr, Thanks for being totally honest with us. So lets get on to a new boiler. If you can do the transplant yourself you will not be too badly off. Has anyone spoken to Bob Oliver about this. I have to wonder why he didn't want to reply. Rick maybe you could give him a phone call.
Dr with a new boiler and a lot of work you will have a great machine for many years of fun. The work is all fun anyway. That is what a hobby is for ,to keep us out of the pub and prevent us chasing young ,or is it old, women.

The lesson here, and I have said it many times, is don't buy anything unless you go look at it. If your not familiar with the item take someone that is with you. It is the best money you could spend . In the last 15 years since the internet I have seen a half dozen people buy old cars that turned out bad.. A friend bought what was supposed to be a big 1912 touring all in good order. He laid out 60 grand in USD plus shipping from Cleveland. It took us a day to get it running only to discover it knocked terribly . After a 10 K engine overhaul plus a 6K tranny job it was not a bad car. Another friend bought a 1911 Cadillac unseen. When it arrived the body had been built with 2X4s and a chain saw. The skin was plywood and the engine needed an overhaul. So much for 36K he paid for it.
So this is not the only hobby that has expensive pitfalls.
Cheers
 

DrAndrzej

Registered
a small update

deeply in my mind there is a 0.8 k$ fee connected with agency in Bremenhaven

on the beginning of january i will get contact with another boilermaker abroad , ive got info about 2 boilers they've been making for someone from New Zeland ??(info from some GDSF visitor, its all like a game that someone told something to someone , but every info has to be checked) , so started digging , the only doubt wat was pointed - to cut the cost - someone ordered the wall under the main barrel of the boiler as flat - no idea how to name it (this is the fragment of external shield of firebox closer front axle , near the shaft ) .
If this is possible - it could be masked by cutting and welding in some points an old steel with proper shape maybe ??

for a moment ive thought that maybe cutting/welding fragments from boilers to GW mentioned by David would be efficient in some fragments better than mine, for example steam dome , but its a nonsense .Vision of me running with a torch over Canada is more humoristic than my other ideas :)


regards

Andrzej
 
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David Hoover

Subscriber
New boiler, or no boiler. Those are your choices. Nobody is going to help you build junk out of junk. Andrzej the whole hobby will be reading this story. Don’t be surprised if someone contacts the Polish Chief inspector and they come and cut that thing in half and take it away. No one is going to allow any stupid moves here. Don’t make desperate comments even as a joke.
 
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DrAndrzej

Registered
David ,lets read it only as a joke , i think that nobody doesnt see it as a plan of landing and grabbing scrapped boilers around the country . on the last meeting with the inspector ive pointed that we have to do it in a proper way , becouse any emergency would close all this steam fun not only in PL , in those internet times news travel fast and wide .
 

GreasyIron

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/28/2019
New boiler, or no boiler.
Perhaps, black and white translates best, but I don't like to rule out legitimate possiblities even if some rare.

There is a US shop doing "new" boilers under the original dome, with R stamp. In reality, I'm guessing probably about the same "ballpark" money as Oliver doing S stamp, so that choice more often based on R stamp vs S stamp nuances, or that shops additional prowess in the mechanical side.
I had a conversation, exactly half in jest, with a shop now no longer in business (for completely different reasons), that a rough dome could be used. Then stamped at a low pressure, and the dome replaced the next day, for a new boiler built under R-stamp. Usually moot as the dome calcs well, but if actually needing that too, I'd think you'd want the AI on board (and may even save a trip) rather than a surprise - but certainly not unsafe.
However, if his dome is as bad as that firebox, but a donor boiler is good for nothing except the dome - why couldn't that be used for a "new" R stamp boiler instead?

Just from reading earlier posts here, it is doubtful a suitable GW replacement would be found, but I wouldn't completely rule it a suitable replacement of some flavor. This case involving overseas communication and shipping though, I would say quite rare. Not to mention risk of repeat fiasco.

George knows of that 75 Case. That is a 25HP dry bottom....... ;). Ok, Ok, I'm teasing the Case guys. Actually, that is a more powerful engine, and good for drawbar work as well as belt. Even if more ubiquitous and less desirable to fire in the belt.
 
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GreasyIron

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/28/2019
I had to look at there earlier photos, it sure looks like original axel and just wearing cut offs. Flat iron spokes are easily made, so correct rims probably could be easily created from just photos and dimensions.

Still moot to boiler, but one tiny less reason to move from this project to a different one.

With the unrecoverable shipping spent, and the particular size and sweat equity making this engine one of particular interest, and with planning to mount your own castings (assuming your inspectors allow you to drill and tap) I'd almost say a new boiler the obvious choice. But as I believe others are trying to warm, even mounting it yourself, the cost will equal or exceed buying a running engine with a good boiler.
 
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GreasyIron

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/28/2019
If it was my engine i would get Jonas Stutzman to make me a new boiler instead of trying to repair the old one
You are a man of fine tastes. Must be deeper pockets than I, but fine tastes no doubt!

To the engine at hand, I didn't quote Oliver back then, but spoke with a few S & R stamp shops in the US when we were engine shopping. We needed to know the cost of a mistake, and to know whether one could come out buying an engine at yard art price to be reboilered.

Essentially we found that you almost need some sentimental value, on top of low initial investment, to justify a new boiler and installation.

That was well over 5 years ago, and we heard ballpark numbers from $30-$50K USD for just the boiler assuming around 20HP and no challenges. The higher numbers more prominent builders, or more detailed paperwork &/or finish. I suspect steel being currently up in the US, prices probably slightly up to despite materials being less than labor and credentials.

But until one or more current quotes come in, my dated observation is merely that.

....... a valuable lesson to be learned here....
......My computer doesn't like to do question marks today.
One could infer another lesson from George's post: enough years of owning steam engines and you won't even be able to afford a working keyboard! :ROFLMAO: Of course, you'll be too busy wiping steam oil from your smile to care.
 
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DrAndrzej

Registered
Hello - im back again for a while .

It was very long time - iv tried to find any possible boiler solution in EU , but for now - it seems that its only 1 option on the table : Inspectors agreed to make major repair with elements of old bpoiler , what means new boiler - copy of existing one - with using old elements - like dome , welded .

My job is to
organize whole process , get all needed information and help - in this point i d like to ask for Your minds/thoughts/knowledge
organize material (with cert of exact type ) ,
divide work possible to do between companies with such ability
make any needed CAD drawings for plasma/waterjet cutter

Ive found contact with chief of production in company produced such boilers for years (closed end of 2019 in PL)- as a asouce of ideas and some kind of help , chief of railway boiler workshop (repair not make new one ) , chief of boiler company who can make some blaksmith works .,chief of welding company with all needed certs - with knowledge of material details ..

Now - the main thing is to get any ideas to think how , what is impotrant , thickness of all elements , (for example 10 mm or go to 12 mm [what is max to use in blaksmith company ]), ideas how to make some shapes , how to mount staybolts to make this easy as possible ....

There are many issues , doubts , especially in my mind , but if i hadn't heard thats impossible - im trying .

If anyone would like to help , can add something to this process (what could be importantt , missed , any hints,tricks , ideas, warnings,etc... ) please write me PM , people from companies wouldn't discuss all this things public .

My friends looked for a company and im waiting for the last call from boilermaker - from their findings , but i do not count on that too much..

Thats all i can write for now , i do not give up , and im sorry that in this thread are no news - but without boiler all other things are not important . (of course not left at all but moved quite slowly forward - as things to do in the meantime of major works )
There was an idea of put inside the body some kind of steam generator powered by oil , but i left it behind .

I have Drawing (Thanks to Dave - once again) - and it is a point of thinking , there are many coments which has to be understood right with author's idea

regards

Andrzej
 
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Rob Bryce

Registered
Last Subscription Date
02/08/2013
Mr Greasy, regarding the 1913 28 hp Minni. I have the drawing for that, that boiler was approved by Alberta with a calculated working pressure of 183 lbs. Allowing it to run at the full 175lbs here in Alberta.
David, Dale's boiler isn't a match to the blueprints. There's some critical differences which makes associating that blueprint, with the boiler, a challenge if somebody wanted to be sticky about it. Plus, there are differences between US and Cdn 28hp Minnie's as well.

--Rob
 
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Pete Deets

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
01/01/2020
Andrzej, It is good to hear from you again but I am sorry you are having such challenges placed in front of you. It will take a little time for answers to be put together but I am sure information will come to you soon...................PD
 

George Hoffman

Sponsor
Last Subscription Date
04/28/2018
Dr Andrzej, Good to hear from you again. We hope you and yours had a great holiday.
Back to your boiler. I think the only piece you can reuse is the Dome. Here is one idea for the barrel. One time I was in a boiler shop where they were rebuilding a 75 case boiler. They used a piece of pipe line pipe for the barrel.. I think it was 24 inch and was tested at 1000 PSI. I don't know if you can find a piece in your diameter in your country. You can't really use the riveted parts to build a welded boiler as they would be full of rivet holes. Just a thought.
Cheers George.
 

DrAndrzej

Registered
Hi .
i have a problem with naming all pieces of boiler to write info for You to understand well.

2 things[main in my opinion ] are solved (in my mind and possibilities of company in PL where ive been today for 2 hrs ) - a front wall for 54 tubes - tube wall and opposite - front external wall of firebox , almost got an idea of 2 walls inside firebox - internal with coal door and internal with tubes .sides are just around them (just means quite heavy work to make an appropriate shape , but even divided - can be done in my opinion)

a little worse is with wall under the barrel - rounded corners is possible to make , but shape under the barrel is a problem , i need such shape - but no idea for now how to make it . i need some kind of ring opposite to those in tube wall . i need to know if there can be welded withot this shape or not

main pipe has to be rolled to appropriate diameter after making tube wall - no idea if this has to be hot pushed into barrell

thats for now , fresh news from today .

Trying to simplify all boiler to pieces and find a solution for every piece .

regards
 

GreasyIron

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/28/2019
Glad to see this project moving along! Thank you for the update, Andrzej.

I've been too busy lately to stop in often (miss the Minneapolis discussion David, but just no time, and way out of the scope of this thread anyway), so glad I browsed new posts today.

It sounds like the inspectors are agreeing to a "new" welded boiler, as repair work under the old dome. A great solution! :)

But he still needs to know thicknesses, and boiler construction methods, to advise the boiler shop, who I infer is approved by the inspector, but not as familiar with this style of boiler.

PIpe, as George wrote, would save the task of rolling the barrel, and may already come with some pressure or seam weld documentation. I wonder if the Case example was 30" or more diameter; I didn't page back to the front of this thread but think this boiler even a little over that diameter.

If he researches thicknesses on this site, it's probably mostly inch dimensions. There is about .0394 inch per mm. I think the alloy was already discussed in this thread, and perhaps the shop or inspector advised on that as well, but if there are any bends in the firebox that may affect the choice there vs the barrel.

Hopefully, those who have been closer to a recent build, can chime in, especially with some GW insight too. Was this 150psi new? So 175psi, maybe 200psi design pressure? Regardless, I think 10mm is a great choice for barrel thickness - probably thicker than original, but unless the tube pattern is way too close, shouldn't hurt at all. Maybe up to 12mm is desirable for tube sheets, but "square welded" vs. bends in the firebox may affect the choice? The rest of the firebox though, including the crown sheet, I'd be tempted to step back to 9mm, if available, and the stay pattern isn't over around 110X110.

I know of a few (US, not certain on the Canadian mfgs) engines with closer to 8mm firebox original. Great heat transfer, but about 100X100mm stay pattern, and still: less than perfect boiler water or maintenance can soon have an effect on pressure. So 9mm seems on valid option on a moderately tight stay pattern, 10mm may be the way too go if pattern is wider, and cannot be changed (due to either stud locations or inspector requirements). The reason I'd be more concerned about over sizing too much here is not cost savings. The reason is heat transfer, and whether any construction methods would be affected. If there a few around to compare it with, being an "easy steamer" may not even be much concern.

All that ramble to say that if 10mm is the shop's most available or preferred thickness to work with, it should make a great boiler. Still, 12mm is worth considering at that rear tube sheet; probably doesn't hurt at the front. And the stay pattern should be considered when determining the rest of the firebox.

Was this ogee bend or foundation ring? Will it matter to his shop?

I know of a boiler builder that puts threaded stays from the outside, and welds them inside. You do not need the long stay tap then, but you still have the original look on the outside. I believe he uses partially threaded stays for these, but I may be off there. Other ones use un-threaded stays welded both sides. The repair shop I'm thinking of, that does dome-down "new" boilers, often does fully threaded stays the original way. There are arguments to residual stresses determining a stay method, but as plenty of each version are operating fine; I'll assume outside the scope of of this thread.

Will it get a jacket? If so, fake seam plates and fake rivets may not matter. Else, a consideration for original look.

Does anyone have an appropriate GW dome handy on the chance his turns up unusable? For a welded boiler, his is probably good, but just to cover all possibilities.

One again I typed a pile of words, only to leave more questions than answers! We'll also see what the GW guys have to say.

Best of luck!
 
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