• If you like antique engines, vintage tractors or old iron machinery, register and join us. When you register on Smokstak, please give complete answers and fill in all blanks. IF YOU ARE ON WIRELESS OR SATELLITE, GIVE YOUR CITY AND STATE! NO ZIPCODES! All registrations are manually approved.

George White from Ontario now in Poland -Help needed

GreasyIron

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/28/2019
Hi .
i have a problem with naming all pieces of boiler to write info for You to understand well.

Trying to simplify all boiler to pieces and find a solution for every piece .

regards
Does anybody have a link to an image or thread with an image naming the parts? I think I've even seen sales literature labeled, but cannot, at the moment, think of a good example.
 

Rob Repko

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
02/03/2020
Hope I don't ruffle any feathers or give away any secrets, but I reboilered a 25 White side mount, the same as the Dr.'s. Was a 5 year project due to external circumstances. Original boiler barrel and sheets, was 5/16 (approximately 8 mm) double rivet lap seam, and I believe 5/8 (approx 16 mm) tube sheets. New boiler is 3/8 (approx. 10 mm) sheets and barrel, 5/8 tube sheets, all welded, including the dome, dinky dome as Oliver's call it. Has a baffle system in it. Have never had a problem lifting water. The original dome was then bolted to the boiler over top of the welded dome for authenticity, but is not pressurized. Fake rivets were welded to non-pressure surfaces below the mud ring for appearances. The 25 has a separate smoke box that can be replaced, not included in the price. Cost 10 years ago was around 38,000 Can$ plus 13% HST (VAT for Europeans). 175psi design pressure, registered in Ontario and Ohio. Swore I would never do another, maybe help someone but NEVER do .another myself.

Slow forward 10 years and some big dummie bought a 20 White rear mount in need of a boiler, pad welded, pitted, holey front tube sheet. This boiler is 3/8 sheets and barrel, 5/8 tube sheets double rivet lap seam. Barrel and smoke box 1 piece. The boiler heating surface itself is about 6" shorter than the 25, not including the smokebox. Fire box and other dimensions are similar. New welded boiler is 3/8 plate, 5/8 tube sheets. 175 psi, same registration. Cost quoted was 45,500 Can$ plus 13% tax. Some labour increase, but mostly material price increase.

Procedure is 40% on ordering, 20% 1/2 complete (shell delivered), 40% on completion. So, I take delivery of the shell, mount and align everything, gearing, engine mounts, crankshaft, brackets and supports, etc, drill and tap all stud holes applicable. Dismount everything, place bolts in stud holes, and send the shell back to Oliver's. Caps are threaded onto the bolts and welded to the interior of the boiler. Original studs would have been tapered thread, so would have sealed themselves. (All mounting points for the dome. engine mounts, axle pads etc was double plate riveted to the inside of the boiler. Other manufacturers doubled on the external surfaces). The fire box and tube sheets, and tubes are then installed, the boiler stress relieved and returned to me for reassembly. Most things will need some re-aligning and fine tuning because the boiler will and does move from welding and stress relief, bearings poured etc. Final adjustments will take place over the next few years as bearings, etc wear in. Hopefully this will help explain why Oliver's did not respond to the request for a quote. Just not practical. He may have done the complete job, but too late for that now that the machine is across the pond.

Hope this helps. Rob.
 

G Willikers

Sponsor
Last Subscription Date
05/01/2019
Mr. Repko,
Thank you for the clear and concise report above. Also, it was great to see you last weekend and I wish we could have chatted more.
From your report, we can now clearly understand the process, costs, and scope of the work. This is not for the faint of heart. Other friends here are awaiting their finished boiler for a (20 hp?) George White from Oliver's Boilers. They knew going in that it would be a big project, but they will have an excellent machine when they are done that they and their families can enjoy for years to come.
I have seen your 25 at work since the reboilering. You, and Oliver's Boilers, did a fantastic job and it is true to George White & Sons reputation for building fine working engines. You went the extra mile to make it into a fine looking show engine and a good working machine.
Your rearmount 20 will also be a great engine. There is another rearmount 20 with an Oliver boiler that regularly comes to shows. The owner is on here occasionally. He puts it to work at shows and it is another fine working George White.
All the best with your rearmount 20 project. Seeing it back in service will be a great credit to its former owner Mr. Henderson, who was a George White man through and through!
 

DrAndrzej

Registered
Thank You for drawing with names

on the drawing is firebox flue sheet and "smokebox" flue sheet -> that means tube sheets , Right ?

1 question

we're trying to make decisions about the thickness , You write that tube sheet ~16 mm Id like to have such thicknesses but impossible to make

on Blueprint of boiler quite similar to mine (in this thread) is :
Shell plate , waggon plate , Inside door sheet ,face plate , crown sheet , 3/8 -> 9.5 mm , we want to decide 10mm or 12 mm

Throat sheet plate , firebox tube sheet , tube sheet i do not see - is the same as firebox tube sheet ?? 7/16 -> 11,1 mm , we can make it max 12 mm becouse of possibilities of the last company in pl able and wanting to make it .

Is it possible to make some comments to these 2 things , firebox tube sheet and "smokebox" tube sheet thickness ? I tried to force 14 mm , but it would be very expencive in firebox tube sheet and impossible in "smokebox " tube sheet

so is there a straight answer : is 12 enough for these tube sheets ?
Maybe looking at simillar drawings designed to higher pressuer would give some answers ?

the same situation is throat sheet plate (wchich i.ve tried to decsribe earlier) , this shape around barrell is now not found as possible to make , no idea if this can be straight and reinforced somehow , if it can be staright than even 14 mm is easy , if not - i have a problem ..

and back to the barrell :

Typical production near this diameter is in EU 813 mm external , with 12.5 mm thickness (8mm,9mm, 11mm 12.5 mm ...) rare made from appropriate steel , sold only in 6 meters fragments ... , to this diameter need to be done "smokebox" tube plate , this dimension is made easier with growing diameter , its better for producer to make 820 than 790 for example , becouse of the machines , the best is 1meter and more ..

from quick measurings - i need 820internal+2x thickness ~ 840 mm (original) or let's say 845 effective , so that means a need of rolling barrell and weld , this process is possible , very often used and the only bad thing is the cost of work , min 10hrs welding + xx. hrs rolling counted on the bill .
benefit - made on welding place and no cost of transport , minus - cost of work , ready pipe is probably cheaper (if somehow would be found a fragment ~~ 3 meters not 6 )


meeting with inspector to make a starter documents+plan of work for production this boiler - next week , thuersday maybe

regards

Andy

PS 2 , are there any photos what is under steam dome on the barrell ? any blueprint/drawing ? from "mine" i cannot imagine now how it looks , there is reinforcing plate , 2 raws of rivets , a pipe with holes but i have only a side view , maybe there is a cuted steam dome photo or sth like that
 
Last edited:

G Willikers

Sponsor
Last Subscription Date
05/01/2019
Dr. Andy,
I cannot know how your boiler is made.
However, in some George White & Sons boilers the dome sits on the boiler shell and there is a reinforcing plate under the shell to which everything is riveted. In some later boilers, built to post-1909 Canadian (Alberta) Standards, that plate would be 3/8-inch thickness.
From the little experience I have, the George White, from the factory, has a "dry pipe' that extends rearwards (towards the operator) along the top of the steam space inside the boiler. This pipe gathers dry steam and delivers it to the dome and to the main steam valve. Those dry pipes will extend back to just over the crown sheet area, but always at the very top of the steam space to gather the hottest and driest steam. I do not remember what the diameter of the dry pipe would be - certainly over 2 inches.
The dome itself is not open to the boiler, except through the dry pipe. It may also have--I know the Waterloo Manufacturing Co. engines have--small openings to allow condensation to return to the boiler and not lay in the dome space. In one Waterloo I helped rebuild, those drains were completely plugged with scale and muck and were only made visible through hard cleaning.
Working with local inspection authorities and boiler shops, you will have to build a boiler that satisfies your local requirements.
The very best to you and your family.
 

GreasyIron

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/28/2019
Great choice of labeled drawing, IrishM!

Rob Repko, that is a ton of awesome insight!

As noted, Andrzej, the names do vary some.
So yes,
Tube sheet = Flue sheet.
Smokebox = Front.
Foundation ring = Mud Ring; formed instead of spacer is instead called an ogee bend
Wrapper Sheet: sometimes wagon top on the radius, then side sheets, or waist sheets below the round area.

10mm should exceed original thickness everywhere, but the tube sheets.

The firebox tubesheet gets some abuse with small areas between the tubes, and water boiling rapidly. However, I recall too, your print showing 7/16, which would imply 12mm a good choice. The pressure calculations will come from the stayed area, and don't account for the things that could cause warping, or tube leaks, instead of catestrophic failure. I'm near certain I recall other brands around 1/2 (12.7mm) too. I'm curious whether Oliver liked the 5/8 tubesheet to avoid warping, or made it easier to roll tubes leak-free, or the originals being replaced had 5/8, or enough originals used it to justify the choice, or some original, or more recent, precident. ???

I must note again though, that the stay pattern must be known to calculate the firebox limiting pressure. Great caution must be used if changing stay locations, or studs may interfer after the boiler is finished..

Did GW have a belly band reinforcing the axels on this size, or did they double up the axel pad area inside the wrapper plate, as Rob noted? Maybe both?

Not to discourage, as a "new" repair stamp boiler sounds like the perfect new life for this engine. But I will state that there are many things that need to be done right (even if some have multiple right options) when making a boiler. Also, plenty of things like firebox thickness must be considered iteratively, like the stay pattern and sheet thickness for the firebox example.

Best of luck with your initial print submission!
 
Last edited:

DrAndrzej

Registered
Thanks for all those answers

on #109 is a blueprint similar boiler from Dave -for now only material i have .

i see there reinforcing plates , and no sign of belly band ? , i think that i do not see it also (or sign of existence , munting rivets or so ) in real boiler

there is also a side schematic of steam dome and steam pipe , if everything there is tight , i wont be able to see it without cut a fragment of barrell or unmounting rivets i guess ? maybe from insight via USB camera somehow

stay pattern is visible , Ive thought that it need to be copied in a new boiler , but no idea what pressure occures from calculation using pattern from drawing , this is not announced there

if i read it well , on the drawing pattern is 4 1/4
in real it was about 110 mm , but its only a more or less accurate measure

regards

andrzej
 

GreasyIron

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/28/2019
Thanks for all those answers

on #109 is a blueprint similar boiler from Dave -for now only material i have .

i see there reinforcing plates , and no sign of belly band ? , i think that i do not see it also (or sign of existence , munting rivets or so ) in real boiler

there is also a side schematic of steam dome and steam pipe , if everything there is tight , i wont be able to see it without cut a fragment of barrell or unmounting rivets i guess ? maybe from insight via USB camera somehow

stay pattern is visible , Ive thought that it need to be copied in a new boiler , but no idea what pressure occures from calculation using pattern from drawing , this is not announced there

if i read it well , on the drawing pattern is 4 1/4
in real it was about 110 mm , but its only a more or less accurate measure

regards

andrzej
The typical equation for flat surfaces with typical traction engine sized threaded stays:

Pressure=2.1*13800*t*t/horizontal pattern/vertical pattern.

Used to be larger of H or V, used as squared, but I think more are allowing rectangle measurements.

I don't know of any inspectors allowing greater tensile, at the moment, but I think it could be arguable.

With 110mm pattern I calculated in the 190s psi for 9mm. Well over 200psi for the 10mm. The tube sheet, thicker is desirable, but not because of pressure equations.
 

DrAndrzej

Registered
Thank You !

So this equation says that 9 and 10mm is enough , 12 is much more than enough for 13 atm pressure (191 psi) .
What are the conditions for this equation to work ? diameter of staybolts is specified as a standard ?
 

GreasyIron

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/28/2019
David, you reminded me of another one on my someday list to browse through thoroughly!

Andrzej, in the above equation, the pressure would slightly (by using 2.2 instead of 2.1) increase for welded stays [or material much thicker than your firebox], so it gives a good idea in that form. I'm not certain whether GW boilers were built using that equation or something else, but still should give you what you need to know. Conversely I used the easier, but slightly less stringent, interpretation of Average for a rectangle patterns, but think that you noted square anyway.

So yes, 9mm is enough for a 4.25, or even, 4.313 (even 110mm) stay pattern to make a design pressure of 191psi. If I read correctly earlier, the replacements built in recent years have been to a design pressure of 175psi. Working pressure 150?

Using 10mm in the firebox would more allow room for erosion (which should be essentially none, if you take care of it) by the time your grandchildren become its caretaker. Potentially, the 10mm is a little less reactive to the fire than 9mm. Thicker than 10mm, I believe you would notice it less responsive to the fire.

The tube sheet still differs though. I do think that 12mm would be appropriate here, but most curious why the 16mm examples.

Back to the book that David referenced. Even just flipping quickly through a few pages, hopefully one gets an idea of the complexities involved with a boiler. Fortunately as "repair" work, closely following original design intent (maybe with a little thicker plate in appropriate places) should reduce that some. But it still highly counts on the shop doing the work to have a good understanding of proper practices - as well as anyone approving the prints thoroughly understanding how everything affects other other aspects.

Good luck!
 
Last edited:

DrAndrzej

Registered
Ok , i understand.

Yesterday evening ive been talking in small railway society with guys who got one of the last work made by boilermakers in Poland . Its LOWA small locomotive with repaired boiler . They've noticed that fireboxes ,made as new in different steam boilers ,were made from 12mm steel type G265PH (a type of steel dedicated here to steam pressure boilers ). this info will be checked , but im curious why this thickness here is a some kind of standard , while thinking about heat transfer would rather direct into 10 mm .

i'll try to read this book but it takes time to understand it .

regards

andrzej
 

GreasyIron

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/28/2019
Ok , i understand.

Yesterday evening ive been talking in small railway society with guys who got one of the last work made by boilermakers in Poland . Its LOWA small locomotive with repaired boiler . They've noticed that fireboxes ,made as new in different steam boilers ,were made from 12mm steel type G265PH (a type of steel dedicated here to steam pressure boilers ). this info will be checked , but im curious why this thickness here is a some kind of standard , while thinking about heat transfer would rather direct into 10 mm .

i'll try to read this book but it takes time to understand it .

regards

andrzej
Interesting topic; stretching my realm of knowledge. I know little about European boiler design, but believe many supported the firebox with corrugation (a wavy pattern in the plates) instead of stay bolts. That would increase surface area, as well as likely change design thicknesses. Else, I believe many European engines were running at around the 200psi while the greater number of traction engines in North America still tended closer to 150psi; thicker firebox may have been necessary for that reason?
 

DrAndrzej

Registered
Thank You David , downloaded

it takes time , if i'll magage to finish reading - i'll be retired ;) , my knowledge of language is not so great to understand all just like that , but all 3 books are now in my laptop , ill try to read it - but i think that many important ,practical for boilerman details would be missed :-(.

Ive bought recently polisch book - they are almost for a dollar or 2 - unusless now and almost thrown out from libraries - 1955y - when steam boliers were in Poland in use , with some calculations , this is not about locomobila boilers , but more stationary/railway .

try to find more info in both , but i think, during all this process i still need to talk with boilermakers and got some informations .

regards

Andrzej
 

DrAndrzej

Registered
Meeting with inspector and company which will make final welding and final job done today .

becouse measuring and CAD is my duty - ive done primitive tools to inside/outside diameter , my measurements are a bit different now :


outside barrell 835 mm , previous inside 820 was OK but with calculation of lost rust material nominal was 814 mm

tube pipe is Outside 51mm , no idea about thickness wall in tube , previous measurement in tube wall was not right , tubes were rolled out in tube wall (and by mistake 48 mm measuring was INSIDE rolled tube )



idea for this boiler is to make 1 barell for whole lenght - ended welded backhead only ,cut and welded in firebox area ,tube wall made as a flat piece of steel welded 2 sides to barrell

i want to make barrell outside the same diameter , 12mm , so inside will be ~810 mm , hope - no difference

tubes are sold in 6m or 12 m length , tubes in boiler are 1970mm with a little endes from rolling , to mke it simple we make 2000mm (Minus cut waste about 3-4 mm ) - IMO it has no impact


problem is with idea for washout holes (?) on the corners , is it possible to buy such sets to weld into corners sheets ?

we (for now ) have no possibility to make flangle ? in area where throat sheet connects to the barrell , proposition to make it 90 degrees 2 sides welding with reinforcements if necessery

well , just to add a picture - my primitive measuring tools quickly made before trip :)

bttom for upper part of back head is to order , radius for flangle is possible 80mm inside , in original is about 100 mm inside , but there is only one company possible to make it and their tool aloow for 80 mm radius only

PS
If You have any ideas which are not to write public and may help - please feel free to write PM/@/sms/WhatsApp/AnyOtherWay ...
 

Attachments

Last edited:

Andrew Webb

Registered
From the info I’ve been able to gather reading this thread so far, It sounds like you should either get a completely new boiler made, or sell the engine and try to find one in better shape (perhaps from the U.S.?)

Bob Oliver has made many GW boilers, and is probably one of your cheapest options given the current exchange rate....
 

GreasyIron

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/28/2019
From the info I’ve been able to gather reading this thread so far, It sounds like you should either get a completely new boiler made, or sell the engine and try to find one in better shape (perhaps from the U.S.?)

Bob Oliver has made many GW boilers, and is probably one of your cheapest options given the current exchange rate....
He found a shop locally, which is good. If I read correctly: his inspector had approved an equivalent of "new boiler built under R-Stamp using original dome," but, again - if I understand correctly, revised the decision to include new dome fabrication too. So new welded boiler, but somehow still gets to follow original design intent rather than some of the ASME hoops we'd get stuck between.

The shop does more industrial boilers, so Andrzej recently sent me a PM with a couple questions about internals. Hopefully, the GW guys have more certain answers than I - though comparing his existing boiler to some of those GW prints mentioned here earlier should yield the same information.

Did all the GW boilers use a dry pipe? Was that in conjunction with a baffle? I know our KG has dry pipe, and it seems resistant to priming, but I'm not even certain whether it has a baffle too. I don't think MTM used either one, but with the generous barrel and tall arced dome, never have trouble priming either. Have those who built new (of any flavor) used dry pipe or baffle? Opinions? I believe "baffle or not" had some heated discussion in a thread years ago, so it could be interesting.

Also, his shop may have a preference to a flat top dome. Assuming that drives the decision, (and I don't remember whether this engine is getting a jacket, but if not) I wonder which is the better look for this GW. Leave the flat top? Or jacket just the dome (using the appropriate shape) even with the bare barrel? :unsure:

This is getting interesting!
 
Top