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Hobart Handler 120 Welder - No Arc

dalmatiangirl61

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
07/10/2019
Everything reconnected. 2 wires to drive motor are red and black, red goes to - terminal on the big cap, black goes P&B relay, blue wire goes to circuit breaker. With pressure off the feed roller, motor gets 8 volts at zero setting, dials up nicely and maxes out at 22.5v on #10 on dial. Holding drive wheel it seems to have plenty of torque even at lower settings, attempts to pull wire back and its stiff, I think its a bad liner! Now to figure that out.

I am not seeing any marking on wires that match schematic, assuming the 1-2-3-4 terminals on back of selector switch match the front of switch, I should be able to swap them into correct locations.

The big cap is reading as a dead short with ohmeter, either way I test, think its DOA.

Edit: Just looked at pdf again and realised drive motor has different voltages at different selector switch locations, so quick retest. Selector at #1 minimum reading 10v max 25, selector at #2 minimum reading 14 max 31, selector at #3 minimum reading 12 max 28, selector at #4 minimum reading 8.9 max 23. Both minimum and maximum readings are higher than indicated in pdf, not sure if it is because motor is completely unloaded or ?????
 
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Pete Deets

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
01/01/2020
Making great progress here! Sounds like the liner is a goner so that can pretty much be put to bed. Don't worry too much about the motor voltages being high because your OCV's are also a bit high but not enough that I would worry about it. It is not like you're half or twice what's expected.
I am not seeing any marking on wires that match schematic, assuming the 1-2-3-4 terminals on back of selector switch match the front of switch, I should be able to swap them into correct locations.
Nope. At least not according to the schematics. If you look hereswitch.JPG the way I read it is that the numbers in the parenthesis are the numbers on the back of the switch and the numbers not bracketed are on the front panel. Somebody may have made the same mistake you're assuming and that's how it got jumbled in the first place. You can easily confirm the front to back numbering by hanging one lead of your ohmmeter on terminal A and hunt for the dead short - 1 ohm or less. The other terminals will show a fairly low resistance because you're measuring the transformer primary but the switch contact should stand out from the rest. Then step the switch through all the positions and confirm.

It is fairly easy to ring out the transformer if you can easily pull the spades off the range switch. I would first mark the wires in a way that makes sense to you so you could put them back where you started if all else fails and start over. You'd be no worse off than you are now. After marking the wires pull the spades off lugs 1 thru 4 on the switch. Hang one lead of your ohmmeter on A of the switch and then read from there to each of the wires hanging in the air. You should be able to see four different values and the lowest resistance would connect to front panel position 4 or the heaviest wire position. The next higher resistance to front panel 3, the next higher to 2 and the highest resistance value to panel 1.

Pushing a pencil around I think the previous owner did just what you describe in putting the wires back on the selector switch. Since you'd have to pull the spades off to correct it anyway it's probably best to do the checks anyway and then you'll be sure. Happy Ohm-ing!!.....................PD
 

dalmatiangirl61

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
07/10/2019
Thank you Pete and Wayne, I'll try to figure those connections out tomorrow.

Trying to get the gun off, should just loosen a wingscrew and pull out front panel, thats not happening, not sure if its welded itself together, or galvanic corrosion from dissimilar metals (brass and aluminum), can't pull too hard because the aluminum part is just single bolted to plastic cage of feed roller, which is flexy plastic:rant:, sprayed with PB, give it a nights rest.
 

dalmatiangirl61

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
07/10/2019
Still trying to unplug the gun, twisting and pulling as hard as I dare and its not moving, getting ready to try some heat on the aluminum part. Video below shows how its supposed to come out, and the only way to replace liner is to get it apart. Thoughts, suggestions, anyone seen one stuck like this???
 

dalmatiangirl61

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Last Subscription Date
07/10/2019
Well, what else do I have to do? Too cold and windy past few days to go out side, heck even had some snow flurries today.

Always more than 1 way to skin a cat, by taking off front face of machine and unbolting that aluminum block gun connector from rest of wire feeder I was able to get it into a vise and using a small socket drove the ferrule out. Liner is now out, has a couple good kinks in it, I'll see about sourcing a new one tomorrow. I was weighing options today, its not worth putting a whole new gun onto this machine, and if I broke something getting it out, there do not appear to be very many used parts available on ebay. I have a much nicer mig, but it would require a forklift and mega extension cord to reach front gate. I need a little 110v machine I can throw in back of toyota with a gen and drive around property line doing some fencing repairs.

I'll try to ini mini miny moe those selector switch wires this evening:rotfl:
 

slip knot

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
12/27/2019
I don't remember having to fight with my liner much but my gun isn't OEM. It was replaced with a miller gun many years ago.

My HH175 did have some issues with the wire drive motor. IIRC there was a thermistor inside that would trip off prematurely. The Hobart forum had the answer and the item number from mouser. Been running fine for 4-5 years now.

Sounds like your getting a real good understanding of how it works. hope you get it figured out.
 

dkamp

eMail NOT Working
My HH was the prior (plastic suitcase) generation, but exactly same setup as photo for the stinger.

Realize, that stinger has the liner, there's a thimble with a pair of O-rings (for shielding gas), then a groove for the thumbscrew. Once the thumbscrew is out, the thimble should rotate, and there won't be anything holding it in. You SHOULD be able to twist it with your hands, as there's no 'key' keeping it from twisting in there anyway. If you were to just walk up to it and start turning the stinger, eventually the switch leads would wind up and pull right out of the switch...


Oh, and it carries weld-current too... doubt it's spot-welded (thimble is brass, housing is steel or aluminum IIRC)... but it could be pitted... and that wouldn't do your welding current flow any favors...
 

dalmatiangirl61

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Last Subscription Date
07/10/2019
Dave, still not sure if it was corrosion, or electrical pitting, but the thimble was seized to the aluminum. I've cleaned them both up with some sandpaper, contemplating a smear of grease. Dielectric, white lithium, or carbon conductive?

Looked the selector switch over this am, no numbers on terminals, looking at schematic, then rotating that 180 to match what I'm looking at, #1 is at top, #4 terminal at bottom. Looking at ocv test results, #3 wire/terminal was the only one correct. Moved blue wire from #4 terminal to #1 terminal, yellow from #1 to #2, and brown from #2 to #4. OCV test results now match selector switch settings:clap:.

I'll put this all back together this evening, will have to order a liner, and a tip conversion kit (seems the tips for these are NLA) tomorrow.

I will update once those come in, thanks to all that helped, doubt I would have figured this out alone:wave:
 

Pete Deets

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
01/01/2020
Great news, Kris!,
You may want to consider something like Noalox (sp?) or similar anti oxidation 'stuff' used by electricians when connecting aluminum feeders. Did it take all your fingers & toes to figure out the switch? It was fun troubleshooting via remote control, I'm glad you stayed with it & Thanks for your patience. You were so close to having it running yesterday I'm glad to see you've decided it is worth a bit more cash. This will be one of those tools that you'll smile each time you use it knowing you fixed it yourself.:giggle:(y) One last thing I'll ask: Will you forgive me for not wearing a mask while typing :hide::beer:........................PD
 
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Charley K

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
10/09/2019
I picked up this little mig welder last week for $20, figured if nothing else it was worth that for the gun as the 15 yo HF mig could use a better gun. When turned on the fan comes on, when trigger is pulled the contactor engages and wire feeder works, but I get no arc at the gun, not even a faint spark.

There is no circuit board in this machine, there is a resettable circuit breaker, it is not tripped. The "button" on capacitor has not raised, no idea if that is a guarantee cap is not bad. No loose wires, and nothing looks burned or cooked on transformer. First thing I need to check is the contactor, it looks like the same style as in the home AC system that I have replaced multiple times, so on that basis it is suspect. Beyond that there are 2 diodes, the capacitor, and an SCR, not sure what scr looks like and have not positively identified it yet.

Any suggestions on testing diodes, cap, and scr would be appreciated.

Hmm, trying to upload pics, but keep getting message that it failed because server reset?
Thank You and everyone for posting on this thread, I learned some stuff that I'm interested in. Very informative for me. CK
 

dalmatiangirl61

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Last Subscription Date
07/10/2019
I step forward, two steps back, story of my life. Made a few calls today, seems the liner for this gun is also no longer available, unless you are willing to pay for it, one place said they could get one for $60 + shipping:faint:. Looking on ebay there are all sorts of liners in the $15-$20 free shipping range, none look like a perfect fit. Called friend in Tx and had her pull a couple of mystery guns out and check dimensions, one might work if I modify (bore) the aluminum block on this machine....seems like a pia. Liner looks like lawnmower throttle cable, see some on ebay with no crimped on brass fittings, wondering if I can pull this liner out of the fitting, drill out so new liner fits then re-crimp? Or maybe just turn a new piece out of brass and crimp?

Does the liner carry current? Notice the thin plastic wrapping on outside of liner, does a liner need that? Not seeing it on any of the ebay liners?

Edit: As this is going to be a flux core only machine, I don't even need to worry about the O-ring.

Edit again: Ebay liner $11.59 with free shipping, the brass piece is not right for my machine, but its 15ft long, I just need 10', so thinking I can make it work? http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5335872123&icep_item=221743911154
 

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slip knot

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Last Subscription Date
12/27/2019
I looked at my old liner today and its different from your HH. My whole torch was replaced with a Miller gun and cable. The miller liner has @3ft of plastic jacket at the fitting end.
 

dalmatiangirl61

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
07/10/2019
Liner on my HF welder is plastic, liner on the Lincoln with the Bernard gun is nylon, ie some kind of plastic. Had a friend check local hardware store, seem to remember something there a few years ago in the Forney selection that looked like what I need, no luck today. I'm going to turn out the brass piece tomorrow, not sure I can crimp it right, thinking heat with propane torch and touch both ends with some solder?
 
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landreo

Registered
There are lots of wire feed welders and I am not familiar with your gun but in general the liner is not there to carry current. The spiral steel would be a poor conductor and would not do well with 120 amps flowing through it. The cable would normally have a braided copper conductor that goes to the tip. You can even weld without a liner for a short while until the wire jams. Even the one HF mig welder gun I looked inside had the copper cable. I believe all wire feed welders have a copper cable supplying the current not the liner but the Handler 120 may be an exception.

If you are not worried about a gas leak then likely a miller/hobart ( handler 140) liner, the liner in your ebay link, would work or could be made to work. Other than the gas fitting end, there is nothing special about the liners.
 

dkamp

eMail NOT Working
Kris... when I replaced the liner on my (earlier version) handler, it came with the thimble just like yours is. It was too long for my stinger, so I shortened it with a cutoff wheel.

I suspect that if you get a generic liner without the thimble, you'll find yourself putting one end of the old liner in the bench vise, then grabbing the liner on the other side of the thimble, and pulling REALLY HARD... to basically unravel the liner so that it's so small, it'll slide out after you clip the unravelled section on one side or other... and afterdoing so, you'll deftly bore the ID of the crimped area, and then make a small collar that slides over the previous crimped area and has some sort of clamping force to squeeze it, rather than a crimp... ;)

By the way... big capacitors ALWAYS appear to be a dead short... until the meter has been connected for a LONG time... because the meter, while trying to measure resistance, is actually CHARGING the capacitor.

Try this instead:

Set your meter to Volts DC... and connect with proper polarity.

Connect a 12v battery charger to the cap's terminals, again with appropriate polarity. Observe the voltage rise. Once it has ceased rising, disconnect the battery charger, and observe how voltage drops. If it drops fast, there's an internal leak. If it drops slow, there ain't.
 
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