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Hornsby Akroyd Colour Scheme

Crossley Kid

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Re: Hornsby Akroyd colour scheme

That shed needs more engines.
The Hornsby register Tom Lingard would be able to tell you and maybe more info on built dates etc
 

Paul Richardson

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Last Subscription Date
01/05/2020
Re: Hornsby Akroyd colour scheme

Hi Tranter, I'm pretty sure that one should be maroon,and having the four wheels and steer axle plus lower turntable plate in red?The two large wheels in your pic might have been a fairly close match to the original at some stage?
'Exact' correct colour shades/tones etc I couldn't claim to know.
As far as my patchy understanding of original colours used from the factory goes there is some information around that shows that some engines(perhaps a majority of early units)were green,but I'm pretty sure that it was standardised with the maroon somewhere around the #5000 mark?
I have looked at quite a good number of H.A. portables,mostly #5000s onwards as well as two or three earlier,complete and wrecks etc while chasing information for a project of my own.
Your engine number encourages me to think that the governor is likely to be original to the engine.They only tried that sharp little lip at the top of the centre ball for 3 to 4 years.
My guess would have it very close to 1905?
 
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Merv C

Registered
Re: Hornsby Akroyd colour scheme

Paul,
I think you are close on the date, and I think that the early Acroyd Hornsby's were green, possibly 'Lincoln green' I know a lot of Hornsby's were given a maroon paint job after restoration. but I have reservations about that.

Maroon was a Hornsby colour but I don't know when it became standard. What I do know my 1908 Hornsby was painted rich Chocolate Brown. We did match the paint at the time and some how we found out that was the correct colour. The 1912 petrol Hornsby I have was painted green and this time we matched the colour to Lincoln green. Both engines had a lot of paint left, probably these days i may have left them as found.

What I know is what I have seen and I what I also know there is a lot of variation to what is believed to be fact

Merv
 

Tranter

Registered
Re: Hornsby Akroyd colour scheme

Thanks for the info Crossley Kid.
A lot of people would disagree with your first comment but!!! (I wouldn't)
That pic was taken just after construction of my workshop...(shed #3)
I think it was the first thing I rolled in there.

---------- Post added at 07:45:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:23:03 PM ----------

Thanks for the info Paul and Merv... understand this type of discussion will always bring about some kind of debate, but it's good to have.
I have been in contact with Ray Hooley in the past but didn't have the mind to ask the question then,
Paul your smack on with the date!!
 

Michaely

Registered
Re: Hornsby Akroyd colour scheme

Hi Tranter

I have #10925 while it has a Richard Hornby plate looks the same as yours but I believe has never been painted since it left the factory. It has evidence of red wheels and small scraps of purplish brown or ?maroon on the engine and transporter. Time fades paint - so I have been skeptical of the red wheels and ford maroon idea which I have been hearing for years. Since when are maroon and red a good combo anyway?? No problem to me as I'm not going to paint mine

Pic of my engine before I built a shed around it


mike
 

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Paul Richardson

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Last Subscription Date
01/05/2020
Re: Hornsby Akroyd colour scheme

Paul,
I think you are close on the date, and I think that the early Acroyd Hornsby's were green, possibly 'Lincoln green' I know a lot of Hornsby's were given a maroon paint job after restoration. but I have reservations about that.

Maroon was a Hornsby colour but I don't know when it became standard. What I do know my 1908 Hornsby was painted rich Chocolate Brown. We did match the paint at the time and some how we found out that was the correct colour. The 1912 petrol Hornsby I have was painted green and this time we matched the colour to Lincoln green. Both engines had a lot of paint left, probably these days i may have left them as found.

What I know is what I have seen and I what I also know there is a lot of variation to what is believed to be fact

Merv
G'day Merv,
my comments are only aiming to relate to the question of what might be known about the particular model Hornsby portable in our thread topic.The family of surviving engines and wrecks that caught my attention a few years back were manufactured from 1900 onwards until the Akroyd patents expired in 1905.A quick look at our thread starters engine tells me that this group includes his engine.All of the portables that I have looked at in this group,unrestored/wrecks etc all show signs where evident of the same paint scheme.
I will include a pic of my own reason for taking a keen interest in the portables that were manufactured and shipped during that period.
My engine is primarily #6988,collected as a wreck minus complete transport.The transport pictured is my second adaption to this engine as the first one was beyond repair.
It has been moved closer towards parts completion with parts from #6516,#6518,#6248,#6986,#7014 plus parts from about 3 other unknown wrecks.All of these were 1900 onwards and all showing signs of the same maroon and red, some of it in very well preserved condition.
If Tranters engine was manufactured earlier than say the mid #5000 mark,or conversely was late enough to not be carrying the Akroyd patent I would be reluctant to offer a comment on the original colour.
 

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Paul Richardson

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Last Subscription Date
01/05/2020
Re: Hornsby Akroyd colour scheme

Hi Tranter
Time fades paint - so I have been skeptical of the red wheels and ford maroon idea which I have been hearing for years. Since when are maroon and red a good combo anyway?? No problem to me as I'm not going to paint mine anyway.
mike
It looks to be very complete and original Mike?There is a young bloke down this way has one that looks very similar.I don't think I would be talked into painting either.Not while it has a nice protective heritage coating of iron oxide that took a long time to get looking that good.
I'm thinking yours might be around an 8hp?
I think if my guessing game is close your wheels and axles are the same dimensions as my own and would interchange with mine?
Here is some 117 year old paint as you can see on one of my new wheels.The condition is somewhat sun bleached and faded,the paint being possibly leeched of a little of it's pigment and oil?I have seen this kind of remnant paint produce all kinds of shades from brighter cherry reds to soft pink on similar engines,due I think to each individual engine or wrecks environment and circumstances?
 

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Paul Richardson

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Last Subscription Date
01/05/2020
Here is the wheel with a bit of water splashed on one spoke to try to give the colour a bit of life.I am told car wax is good for renovating and preserving remnant paint on old engines?
 

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Merv C

Registered
Re: Hornsby Akroyd colour scheme

G'day Merv,
my comments are only aiming to relate to the question of what might be known about the particular model Hornsby portable in our thread topic.The family of surviving engines and wrecks that caught my attention a few years back were manufactured from 1900 onwards until the Akroyd patents expired in 1905.A quick look at our thread starters engine tells me that this group includes his engine.All of the portables that I have looked at in this group,unrestored/wrecks etc all show signs where evident of the same paint scheme.
I will include a pic of my own reason for taking a keen interest in the portables that were manufactured and shipped during that period.
My engine is primarily #6988,collected as a wreck minus complete transport.The transport pictured is my second adaption to this engine as the first one was beyond repair.
It has been moved closer towards parts completion with parts from #6516,#6518,#6248,#6986,#7014 plus parts from about 3 other unknown wrecks.All of these were 1900 onwards and all showing signs of the same maroon and red, some of it in very well preserved condition.
If Tranters engine was manufactured earlier than say the mid #5000 mark,or conversely was late enough to not be carrying the Akroyd patent I would be reluctant to offer a comment on the original colour.
G'day Paul,

I am not in a position to enter into a debate on Acroyd Hornsby's colours. I know people associate maroon and Hornsby's together. I do not know what engines should be painted what colour. I do think that with your experience you will be right in what you are saying

I have been looking again at Google photos and it is surprising how many early ones are painted green. I would wonder why, was that original colour? and of course There is no indications of serial numbers so they may not in the numbers bracket of the engine in question.

Hot bulb Hornsby's are not common here but the petrol ones are and are popular with collectors.

Merv
 

Paul Richardson

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
01/05/2020
Re: Hornsby Akroyd colour scheme

G'day Paul,

I am not in a position to enter into a debate on Acroyd Hornsby's colours.

Merv
g'day Merv,..the reality is neither am I? If we stick strictly though to our thread starters question I might be brave enough to hold my hand up and claim to have a pretty solid answer?
Market penetration here in Oz was pretty good for these engines.Bear in mind I am talking ONLY about H.A. portables,so I am purposefully excluding stationary units and the majority of ALL engines shipped after say 1906.
That narrows the hunt for clues considerably.
When you take a look at the big picture for these units it is almost as if the rest of the world got none,and the whole lot made their way here.I remember asking the chap who cares for the original sales records a good while back about other markets.It seems that none of the 'heavy' or early style portables made their way to South Africa?I am not sure about 'improved' portables.It seems New Zealand might have a similar story,although I do know of an early style portable wreck that was found there.Not much of it was left.The preheat blower made it's way to Australia,and as I was involved in brokering a trade with it at the time I noticed the engine number stamped on it was 4 digits in the #3000 somewhere.Whatever original colour that machine was it would be best to ignore it as well as it is early enough to confuse the picture with the post 1900 portables,which is the place in history where our thread starters engine is situated.Perhaps you have forgotten that you yourself mailed me information to clear up a question for me about why there was such a large gap in the recorded engine numbers to be sent this way somewhere prior to the #5000s?For all of the surviving portables I have looked at there are not many in existence here with numbers earlier than that?I have looked at two or three,and helped with a lot of parts for one of those.
The Australian sales records show a lot of information that seems to clear up a few common misconceptions about the engines that arrived here.I have found that my own vigorous searching for clues about the make up of my own engine has cleared up a few of those for myself personally as well,although you might be surprised how many people are more than ready to argue about things that are repatedly written in the sales register or repeatedly demonstrated in the surviving machinery/wrecks etc;those same things that the other person has not seen one iota of for themselves.
I'm afraid I have also been guilty of the same fault,because a few surprises, just amongst these portable Akroyds alone, have had their turn at deflating the little bit of self proclaimed expertise I had built up.
Factory provided surprises aside,it is not too difficult to map many of the changes in fittings applied to Akroyd portables if you have looked at enough of them closely in respect to their individual shipping dates.
Parts common to both styles such as govenors,small brassware,riveting etc tell a story across the production dates.A good example might be the snap head rivets in the galvanized fuel tanks.'Very' early tanks were rectangular and I have only seen say 2 of these?The cylindrical tanks on the 6.5hp portables I have possibly owned 4 of those myself?Somewhere in the mid- #6000s it appears that the company liked better the look of the head of the snap heads to be visible on the outside.I cant make out Mike's unit clearly but I am willing to bet his is built that way?I think I can make out the riveting at the top of the fuel tank here in the thread on #9663 and it appears true to form?
The question of paint most likely used originally on the above mentioned portable,for myself at least,does not present me with a lot of cause for doubt,given the direction the manufacturer appeared to be taking re colour scheme at the time.
 

Winchester

Registered
Re: Hornsby Akroyd colour scheme

I'm sure you are correct Merv.........there are a couple here in WA the particular one that i am thinking of is green and if Lincoln Green is a light green then it is correct.I'm sure the late Bert Tyler did some research on the choice of colour.
 

typak

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
07/30/2019
Re: Hornsby Akroyd colour scheme

Hello Paul, to my understanding the portable oil engines in general became very popular in Australia very quickly as against the portable steam engine no wood or water and skilled attendant being required, things that were a headache in many parts of the colony during the Akroyd era, and even nowadays? also the safety oil engine presented a great improvement to the risk of fire being applicable to Australia? also it could be said the Akroyd was made in other countries, the US, France and Russia so many parts of the world did not necessarily receive the Hornsby as we know it?....... I had this pleasantly unpainted 05 style at a show on the weekend, now why spoil a good engine by painting it?
 

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Paul Richardson

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Last Subscription Date
01/05/2020
Re: Hornsby Akroyd colour scheme

Hello Paul, to my understanding the portable oil engines in general became very popular in Australia very quickly as against the portable steam engine no wood or water and skilled attendant being required, ....... also it could be said the Akroyd was made in other countries, the US, France and Russia so many parts of the world did not necessarily receive the Hornsby as we know it?
Gday Kim.
Speaking of no skilled attendant,one story in my travels told of a fellow in Queensland who owned a 9.5hp portable(girder),who had a Chinese lackey working for him.The lackey returned to the worksite to find the owner caught up by the coat on the flywheel gib key.As I was told it "the worker noticed the problem and shut the engine off"!

The engine numbers farmed out to those other manufacturing countries were provided to me by Merv via snail mail a few years ago now.I cant recall exactly but ithink it was more than 700 numbers in one block sent to De La Vergne in the States?

Winchester,if it's the one I'm thinking of it was sitting in a shed in the old railway yards at Midland in Perth?The one I walked around was nice old 5hp stationary model from around 1896.It had been featured in an article in the T.O.M.M. a good while back.Quite a gaudy green,and no doubt it was trying to replicate the correct colour for that machine.
 

Winchester

Registered
You would be right Paul .It belongs to the Machinery Preservation Club of WA . Yes it is kept at the now defunct Midland Railway Workshops and I guess it is ''Gaudy''!
 

Paul Richardson

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Last Subscription Date
01/05/2020
While on the subject of Hornsby Akroyd engines residing in Western Australia Winchester,did you happen to ever have the opportunity to have a close look at the 'very' early 6.5hp portable there that resembled Tranters style of engine?
On my visit to Perth when I visited the railway museum I had the chance to visit a suburb in South Perth and to see this other engine running.
I only have some sketches and measurements from the engine,but I don't have any pictures.It closely resembled my own in many ways but was much earlier and was numbered in the early #1000 mark somewhere.
W.A. is a big state as you know,and I don't know the history of the particular engine prior to my looking at it 10 or 15 years ago.I have often wondered if it was originally sold close to Perth or perhaps down your way?
The little bit of history I do know about it is that it came very close at one stage to becoming an overseas export.It had changed hands here just prior to my seeing it,and I presume that it has followed it's new owner interstate by now?
The handful of these engines over your way or at least the two mentioned here are quite early,and I have often thought that being a small number of sales there as well,perhaps the designers relocation from the UK to the Perth region had influenced those few sales in some way?
Despite what we think in the Eastern states about these machines our experience with them is mostly with engines that I would consider to be a little bit 'late in the game'.
To contradict that thought I have looked at one in Queensland(stationary 3.5hp,unrestored,maroon) that was only 3 digits,in the #300 somewhere,plus I am told the earliest known surviving H.A. here in Australia is a similar stationary unit that was shipped to Tasmania.There is a good chance the QLD unit was shipped to N.S.W prior to federation and purchased from there more recently by it's now owner?
 

Winchester

Registered
Paul ,I know of three ,the earliest of these was kept at a museum near Toodyay and was owned by Rex Downey ,now deceased . It was sold but where it is now I have no idea ,it was a very early one ,girder type . The second came from down this way ...well it was near Esperance ,again no idea where it is now . The third would have been the one you viewed at The Midland Workshops, The later would have been built in a period between the other two. Somewhere I have photo's ,I'll attempt to find them and will post them. Yes Stewart Ackroyd did have a WA connection and the firm of Stewart and Llyods was well known.
 

Winchester

Registered
Ray .any idea what happened to the very early engine that was owned by Rex Downey, it was kept at '' The Barn'' ? There was another ,that post dated the MPC one . It was at the National Rally at Busselton ,I'm sure it was WA based .
 
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