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Hornsby Akroyd Colour Scheme

typak

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07/30/2019
The Hornsby's I have seen have the HP stamped into the rear end edge of the cylinder, is there anywhere else they put the numbers other than the ID plate ?
Another question nominal or brake and when did it change............:shrug:
 

Paul Richardson

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01/05/2020
The Hornsby's I have seen have the HP stamped into the rear end edge of the cylinder, is there anywhere else they put the numbers other than the ID plate ?
I can't remember seeing the hp stamped anywhere other than where you are looking Graham?Engine number and hp is usually there.Mine is stamped BHP.Occaisionally the horsepower is embossed on the cylinder water jacket,but the few of those I had taken notice of were mostly 1900 style engines from memory?If you were looking for the engine number on a H.A. engine the fuel pump gauge if present,the fuel pump itself,the top of the sprayer manifold,the edge of the lower flange on the governor are places where I have come to expect to find it.
I personally can't recall anyone ever making mention of nominal horsepower in relation to these things Kim,so I wouldn't be able to answer that?I have presumed they were all brake tested?
Compared to any discussion about say Crossley engines that were prior to 1900,i have found that the subject of differing hp ratings is commonly raised?
 

Winchester

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Paul, perhaps you may be interested in this view of an early HA engine . It was taken from a book I have which was published in 1899 so we can assume the details shown would be of an engine of that period. Included is an interesting table comparing performance figures of other gas and oil engines of the period, Stockport ,Tangye, Priestman,Griffin, Atkinson and Crossley.
 

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Inter Bloke

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If you were looking for the engine number on a H.A. engine the fuel pump gauge if present,the fuel pump itself,the top of the sprayer manifold,the edge of the lower flange on the governor are places where I have come to expect to find it
The English were good at doing that, I remember finding out the same about Crossleys, some of their engines have the last 2 digits stamped into just about everything. Its a feature that can be quite useful, I was able to find out the ID of a "Lanz" tractor backend I had at one stage, they do much the same. It had part of the ID number stamped into the lubricator base (among other things)and that was enough to identify the serial number and with the help of a Victorian friend we were able to identify when and where it was sold and who to. It brought back a lot of the providence that would have been lost if it had only been blank.
 

Paul Richardson

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01/05/2020
Low tension Hornsby's often carry a stamping of the engine number in the base of the magneto.
I had a couple of Bosch 32s here a few years ago and when I made an enquiry or two about them the local sales records were able to reunite one of the magneto's with the original engine and it's new owner.
 

typak

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Last Subscription Date
07/30/2019
What is curious is the physical size of the HA engines in comparison of equivalent hp in say the 05 style engines? as for Crossley oil engines of the same period they really did not make the same inroads into the colonial market as the Hornsby and when seeing both running the reason becomes obvious! one HA I have not seen is a vertical, did any make it to Australia?
 

Paul Richardson

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01/05/2020
Paul, perhaps you may be interested in this view of an early HA engine . It was taken from a book I have which was published in 1899 so we can assume the details shown would be of an engine of that period.
Thanks Winchester,i am wondering now how Tranter is feeling about the full blown hijack of his 'colour thread'?
The ball on the top of the governor shaft where the ball yokes couple to it was kept there until about 1901 - 02 until it was changed for a straight spigot like Tranters engine and my own.Or at least the units I have seen demonstrate that?The beaded edge at the top of the centre ball disappeared along with that change.Tranters has a little sharpish lip at the top,which became a much fatter and more pronounced chamfered lip beginning some time early into the '05 units.
The preheat furnace in your drawing has a raised floor,and I'm pretty sure now that this one is also physically smaller than the one used on larger units like #1951.I found that out recently trying to help out another enthusiast with a small hp H.A. stationary model.Heavy style portables like mine have a single lamp of a similar size to #1951.Larger horsepower units in the heavy style use two lamps.This is the case with 12.5hp and 16hp heavy style portables. I suspect a 9.5hp without the water jacketed hotbulb would also use 2.(not sure)
The venruri?,..or what some people call the wick in the furnace was altered in height sometime after #6000s as well.Thats the little cast iron tube in the centre of the furnace having a waisted section toward the bottom.The footing on the one in your drawing is typical at around 1 1/2" high?I found one for a 6.5 hp identical to my own in a rubbish dump that had plenty of added height there.
A conformity in alterations made to components such as this shown in surviving units might help to debunk a myth that some of these engines of the early style may have been held over by the manufactuer and then sold later?Adding or subtracting height from this part will alter or trim the furnace flame,which would show that the manufacturer was still attempting to develop or improve their product at the time. The part I found was a badly heat effected one original to the engine that was once there on the property.A replacement had been purchased for it from Ruston and Hornsby in Melbourne by the original owner some 40 or 50 years after the engine was purchased.
I also scratched around and found the spark arrester for the hotbulb cover,which really made my day!
 

typak

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07/30/2019
i am wondering now how Tranter is feeling about the full blown hijack of his 'colour thread'?
I sorta wonder when looking at the OP that the rings that appear? to be shrunk on the flywheel hub would be a little more of a concern than the colour? after 46 replies no mention of this, very curious ? or am I missing something here ?
 

Paul Richardson

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01/05/2020
What is curious is the physical size of the HA engines in comparison of equivalent hp in say the 05 style engines?
The Akroyd family has a main hp/physical size division of it's own without the added question of the '05 units.
That is also a 'general' statement attempting to avoid the factory surprises that are salted in amongst the norms.
A rule of thumb that I hold onto re physical size (not too tightly I might ad)with Akroyd engines, a said horsepower in the heavy or 1894 style,without a water jacketed hotbulb, can usually be expected to be around the same size physically as the next size up in hp in the 'improved' or 1900 style.
I couldn't answer why there's a sudden jump in size when we get to the 1905 style units?Perhaps somebody reading here has the science on that question?
I am led to believe a 6.5hp engine like mine could finish up producing about 3hp if it was badly overloaded and overheated.:O

Yes I did spot those Kim,but didn't know(and still not sure)what I was looking at,so left it alone...?...Tranter..?
 
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typak

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07/30/2019
Patrick, you forgot the late style one at the 2009 Clarendon Classic, a very nice engine and one of the last HA ?
 

typak

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07/30/2019
A couple of HA pics and a Kynoch reference? after a little checking it is indeed the case HA used bhp through the whole range, seems they were right up to date at the time.
 

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Paul Richardson

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01/05/2020
I think this last engine in Patricks large photograps is a good reminder why an enthusiast would be well advised when looking at the Akroyd engines to avoid the idea of 'absolutes' when it comes to what fittings etc constitutes a certain model?
I don't know what number that engine might be, but the governor shape and a few other features might indicate a manufacture date somewhere in the last four years of production?
The muffler is cast like an 05 model,and when you take a look through Patricks photos you will see that most are the typical riveted black sheet.So far so good!
The engine pictured previous to this last one might be a good one to compare differences?That one is at LGS in The Sunshine Shed,next to a 20hp stationary.I think it's a 5hp and as you can see the flywheel was created to face with the curve in the opposite direction.The boss will most likely be formed and fitted on both engines to the outside?The 'Sunshine' engine flywheel turns anticlock like my own.
The same engine has a cast hotbulb cover that is seen on a lot of 'improved' models,but the last machine pictured has the riveted back cover regarded to be typical of the early style.
The vapour valve is the early water cooled variety that seemingly disappeared from the improved engines into the 1900s.As has been pointed out to me recently that some early engines were 'revised' just prior to 1900 and carried some of the newer technology,but here is a late example wearing an early vapour valve?It is not something that is a simple bolt on changeover part,as it has a three stud fitting to the flange and is three pieces,manifold,sleeve and valve.The interesting water coupling between the water jacket and the overhead return pipe to the cooling tower also carries a 't' outlet to feed the vapour valve manifold.
I have seen this anomaly in reverse on a pre 1900 6.5hp girder engine where it had the two stud vapour valve without the water cooling fitted in the original build.
I can't quite make out the embossed hp rating on the water jacket?Does it say 6.5?.Another nice interesting engine that I would like to know the production number of!?
 
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typak

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07/30/2019
It is 5 bhp, by memory it was said to be a new Akroyd , also mentioned to be a late one with a known history and said to be original and after looking at it on several occasions I would not hesitate to say that is the case, a interesting engine.
 

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Paul Richardson

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01/05/2020
Certainly looks original,..the flywheel boss is actually fitted towards the bearing by the look of it?
It's likely I think at times that a new feature or development got a run for testing on the existing model?I'm supposing in a case like that,if the engine was satisfactory it was simply later sold?My mates girder engine has a lot of the same thing going on.
I do know of an 8hp girder engine that is pretty much identical to my own,i think even bore size is the same,but the cylinder is blind and the whole business end is '1900 style' with water jacketed hotbulb etc.This is not just a matter of finding an improved cylinder to stick on where the early one was,but rather it's a completely different cylinder with a pedestal mount and a six bolt downward stud pattern to suit the girder engine bed.
It appears to not have counterbalance weights on the crankshaft,which is a common feature on the improved models?
 
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Paul Richardson

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01/05/2020
Ta Patrick, that would roughly equate at somewhere around the start of 1904 for shipping?I'm not sure if I am doing the right thing comparing this engine to the LGS Sunshine shed unit as the latter might actually be 6.5hp?Our thread starters engine might actually be a closer comparison for hp to 8262,but there's a chance also that his is a 3.5hp?
8262 has a later style muffler than the one on Tranters more recent engine,but the water pump is minus the chamber on the top plug typical of an early type portable.This and other odd features,the vapour valve arrangement,hotbulb tinware,unbalanced crankshaft,cast crank guard are all pretty much identical to what you would expect to find on a 'very' early 3.5hp portable.It's a very interesting machine when you consider that a 'heavy' style 3.5hp portable would most likely be identical in size to a later 5hp 'improved'?
Something has happened around the preheat area,and it appears that the owner has jewellery rigged a lamp to run his engine?I wonder about the original preheat,if he had any clues about the original arrangement?
 

typak

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07/30/2019
has a later style muffler
Hello Paul, I have always thought of them as a 'cooling tower' using the exhaust blast inertia to pull air up through the falling water, much like the draft of a steam engine that Hornsby would have been familiar with?
 
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