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Hornsby Akroyd Colour Scheme

Paul Richardson

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01/05/2020
Yes Kim I would agree with that idea,the earlier style portables if I'm right and a few of the improved models had slats of timber inside to dribble the water down and usually are seen with a smaller tank underneaththan most later models.I am assuming they were relying on more effective cooling from the earlier setups?Problems with preignition and loss of horsepower led to larger capacity water tanks finding their way onto the later units,plus the timber work was done away with.I described the idea to a mate at the local milk processing works and he informs me they use the same idea cooling partly processed milk by running it down long flat open surfaces.The timber work in the earlier units I have seen written up as 'gradir' work,but as yet I have no idea of what that means?
In talking about the muffler I would only be pointing to the riveted or cast iron in this case,pot on top of the cooling tower.The riveted ones are self contained having a floor and lid.The gases are sent upwards through the chimney via an elbow in the neck.
I'm presuming the cast one is similar?
 

rodneyt

Registered
Something has happened around the preheat area,and it appears that the owner has jewellery rigged a lamp to run his engine?
hi guys, i dont mean to get us all sidetracked,
but "Jewellery Rigged" is new to me,
and worth at least one 'rusty brownie' point.
i had heard of 'jury-rigged' and jerry-rigged'

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/132868/jury-rigged-or-jerry-rigged


and some say there is nothing new... (not that that bothers us...)
but ahh yes!!
jewellery-rigged conjours up sparkles of brass copper zinc and chrome!
all worthy sources of heavy metal poisoning for us with rusty-iron disease.

cheers and congrats, Rod.
 

Winchester

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Hello Paul, I have always thought of them as a 'cooling tower' using the exhaust blast inertia to pull air up through the falling water, much like the draft of a steam engine that Hornsby would have been familiar with?
Yes Tim exactly my line of thought and it appears that is the system that many types used . However you will see that the MPC engine does have an . exhaust that does not exit through the ''Cooling Tower''. This engine from memory also has a large water tank fitted to the underside of the main casting.......normal ???
Can we stray from the OT?
 

Paul Richardson

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Last Subscription Date
01/05/2020
hi guys, i dont mean to get us all sidetracked,
but "Jewellery Rigged" is new to me,
and worth at least one 'rusty brownie' point.
i had heard of 'jury-rigged' and jerry-rigged'

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/132868/jury-rigged-or-jerry-rigged

cheers and congrats, Rod.
Gday Rod,..well I must admit I am feeling pleasantly embarrassed at your pointing out of this unique term.I have been spouting that idea for over 20 years now! I cant say for sure who it was now,but my "j***--y" word was not my own invention but was borrowed from a distinguished gent who was enjoying vintage engines long before I had thought of it.
Don't tell me my industrial deafness and stubborn stupidity has accidently added to the to the rustaholic lexicon?:rotfl:
The "jewellery" word is one that is well established amongst the language of the afflicted.I'm thinking back to when I first encountered the term "jewellery rigged" and I honestly don't think I misheard!?
I do remember first hearing about "jewellery" on old engines from a couple of older enthusiasts while asking for help in identifying a large portable find at the time.I remember the term being like food to me at the time as my iron deficiency was just beginning to emerge.
Now,..enough of that from me while I post a picture that relates to a more official sidetrack.These early style portable mufflers were quite well designed but I imagine they would have required a fair amount of tricky fabrication work.The top is a disc of say 1/8" sheet with a centre hole cut and these were either formed with a drop hammer or spun.A downward lip is formed on the outside edge while the centre has a lip (enough to lap and rivet)facing upwards.Two of these identical pieces are used for the top and bottom.Some more sheet is rolled and riveted to form an inner tube to join the top and bottom pieces.A cast iron exhaust elbow with an open end is riveted facing upwards to the inside of the inner tube section before a larger rolled and riveted tube is placed over the whole assembly and riveted into place.A piece of 3'8" flat bar is rolled and riveted at the bottom to give some thickness where the mount holes are located.
If you look closely at mine some jewellery polishing apprentice ,may have got the measurements wrong when marking out the exhaust flange hole with a punch.A neat circle of punch marks can be seen where a flange screw was later placed.
Looking a little more closely for engineers markings that 'should' appear on the engine,file marks can be seen to number the individual trays(called "pipes") in their proper locations.These small marks are visible where the muffler bolts to the cooling tower,at the very top of the sheet where it meets the muffler.The pipes have two lines of small holes to evenly distribute the water flow down either side of the timber slats,referred to as "gradirwork".A little more science on this kind of cooling,aparantly the idea of dribbling the hot water down over the flat surface was to slow the flow sufficiently and to increase the surface area of the water.As was mentioned earlier the upward flow from the exhaust outlet creates a flow of cool air over the descending water.
 

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typak

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07/30/2019
One thing that could be asked is exactly when did the HA finish and what can be exactly defined as a 'Akroyd' engine? buy patents or design......:shrug:....... ads and article from mid 1906.
 

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Michaely

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Hi Kim, that's interesting - the '05 style engine with what looks like an earlier girder Ackroyd in the same ad.

Mike
 

Paul Richardson

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01/05/2020
What is curious is the physical size of the HA engines in comparison of equivalent hp in say the 05 style engines?
I dug out a repro catalogue the other day titled 'the Hornsby Oil Engine' and the particular publication included an owners testimony regarding a 5bhp H.A. stationary engine #778.
The engine was being tested by an insurance company for the purpose of insurance 8 years after the purchase date.The engine at that stage had required no repairs.
A few of the stats on the engine were as follows:average use was 3 - 4 days a week,cylinder diameter 8",length of stroke 14",revolutions per minute 218,
explosions per minute 109,average pressure during stroke 35psi, indicated hp 6.8.
Is there a chance the early larger variety of these engines had the hp understated?
It's quite a large engine physically having an 8" bore with a bhp rating of only 5hp?
My own is 6.5hp having a 9" bore.The engine #778 above has recorded almost 2 hp more than the makers rating?
The test was undertaken by the insurance agency for their own purposes of testing the engines condition prior to selling the owner some insurance cover for it.
The large early style portables are usually a slower recommended working speed,and I think part of this has to do with them having an unbalanced crankshaft?This factor might have a bit to do with the early engines having to keep some size about them in order to keep some good output figures?
 
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typak

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Last Subscription Date
07/30/2019
Paul, some perspectives on hp at the time from a 1905 book, as for the hp and size changes, just a opinion here, one obvious point is the 'improved' or 05 engine deleted the valve box and went to cross flow making uninhibited cool air available to improve efficiency as pulling intake air through the original HA hot valve box would decrease air density, needing larger cylinder displacements to compensate on the HA engines, other changes also no doubt contributed to efficiency gains along the way, also a pic of a vertical engine, looks quite advanced in comparison to the horizontal engines, also as Winchester has mentioned can we stray from the original topic? I don't think it matters? but will say I think some of the early engines were grey ?
 

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Paul Richardson

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01/05/2020
The company was possibly champing at the bit waiting for the patents to expire!?
It would appear that one major carryover advancement from the previous models was still providing quite a benefit though,in the '05 range that used the newer and more efficient design?This is evident in amongst the smaller sizes where engines of differing horsepowers still shared the same platform for bore/stroke etc but opt for either water cooled or early style hotbulb.Unless I'm mistaken '05 3.5hp and '05 5hp are the same physical size.
The portable sketch in that advert Mike appears to have been widely used in quite a few earlier publications.I think the ad itself is meant to be more of a collation of the company's efforts over a period rather than showing current activity?The £1000 from the war department mentioned there for instance would most likely be in relation to the H.A.Tractors previously tested.I don't know that for certain though?
The portable itself appears to not have a muffler,having all cooling tower and an extra tall chimney.It took me a long time to come up with a good idea with what was going on with the exhaust of this unit.It's very likely 12.5hp very similar to the big green one in our thread,same heavy style but most likely an earlier build.
 

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typak

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07/30/2019
Also it is interesting the Victorian Museums HA, no 1887, the cooling tower, after 1904 all the different towers continued, cast iron top or the folding outlet also flat wooden slats or timber 'cribbing' inside. Also a marine engine pic, some marine engines were sold in Aus but can say I have never seen a surviving example.
 

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typak

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07/30/2019
It would appear that one major carryover advancement from the previous models was still providing quite a benefit though,in the '05 range that used the newer and more efficient design?This is evident in amongst the smaller sizes where engines of differing horsepowers still shared the same platform for bore/stroke etc but opt for either water cooled or early style hotbulb.Unless I'm mistaken '05 3.5hp and '05 5hp are the same physical size.
In the last post Paul I should have mentioned that in any case efficiency can only really be judged on pounds of fuel used per horsepower per hour and at a glance the original design was not perfect, Stuart states himself he modified HA engines in 1906 to be more efficient, not that it matters on the rally field nowadays anyhow, one thing that can be said all the Hornsby oil engine designs have some issues, but were better than all the other english oil engine designs at the time.
 

Paul Richardson

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01/05/2020
Re: Hornsby Akroyd colour scheme

If Tranters engine was manufactured earlier than say the mid #5000 mark,or conversely was late enough to not be carrying the Akroyd patent I would be reluctant to offer a comment on the original colour.
Quoting myself here Kim,from my own view the picture can too easily dissipate when looking at the many carryover design features that are seen still in use or being phased out past a certain production date?
That's just how it effects me personally I'm afraid.
I agree and have seen for myself fold down chimneys on the larger units and timber work and the like continued on various later models,but some of these features were in my view the exception rather than the rule or perhaps still in use but in the process of being phased out.To me it's a bigger surprise to see the cast iron muffler pot and galvanised cooling tower on the 5hp portable 8262 than to have seen the many variations appearing later as you point out.
The water cooling that I have been harping on about among the first available portables,or dedicated portables was a big deal from the manufacturers viewpoint,and they were talking it up at every opportunity against the well known needs of steam.The cooling system with the pipes was highly strung and was aiming to be super efficient on the first model portables.This idea was a distinct feature for the available range at the time,having the small tank underneath,and the more troublesome pipe arrangement.I have seen this setup on a larger 1900 style portable,but once again this has been the exception rather than the rule.
I will post a picture of one of my reproduction pipes showing the discovery I made while making them.I can't remember now but I think I made a longer couple first,before making one or two for other owners.Without the dimples cast into the bottom surface of the pipe between the holes the water would gather to it's own liking and rather than seperate evenly down the timber slats it is just as likely to form its own stream to the end of the pipe and run down on the outside of the cooling tower itself.I am only guessing but I think that once the company realised that the customer was not hung up on a few extra gallons of water the timberwork was looked at differently?As can be seen with portables in the 'improved' range the cooling towers on similar sized engines took on an oval shape and were fully enclosed,and the timberwork was given a shower.
I think I recall a 16hp improved model that would be an exception,but for the new design that would pretty much be the rule?
Regarding where the story goes with the later machines I'm afraid I'm somewhat of a bewildered spectator.I do wish I actually owned one or two later ones and the subsequent experience with them.(don't we all!?).
Going back a post or two to comment if I can to ad possibly something of interest?
Marine versions? I once read a very lengthy account surrounding the activities of Florence Young who was a key figure in the formation of a group that became known as the South Seas Evangelical Mission.The group had it's beginnings including ms Youngs religious schooling on Australian soil of our cane cutting slaves from Solomon Islands and other neighbouring locations.The fledgling organisation owned a launch or a yacht of some kind named the Evangel.This boat was powered by a Hornsby Akroyd oil engine.Perhaps somebody might search out some more information on it?I read some of the story about a tear down that was needed on one of their trips to fix a hole somewhere caused by sea water.I don't know if it was a vertical type,and had simply pictured in my mind a horizontal Akky while reading.
The picture of the 3.5hp portable in the Melbourne museum is significant from the viewpoint of the family of available dedicated portables at the time that it was built.This was the smallest horsepower of the dedicated portables available at the time.Next size up was 6.5hp followed by 9.5,then 12.5,then 16hp.The picture becomes foggy again for these engines above 16hp.A 25hp was imported here but that was around 1901 and I don't know if it was made strictly to the older heavy pattern.It was a split frame or 'girder',that much is known.
The 3.5hp pictured above was the only one in the available range of portables at the time to employ a cast iron engine bed while all of the larger hp units were split frame engines.
If somebody can pinpoint the date for the first 'improved' portables to appear,sometime close to 1900,that would be considered the time when the family of dedicated Akroyd portables gained quite a number of additional horsepowers and plenty of cast iron engine beds.
Comparing the transports of the old split frame design with the emerging improved style units is also a lesson in the company's challenges,and at close inspection is a little like comparing cheese and chalk.The improved models rely on rigidity from the cast engine bed.My apology for continuing to colour the conversation through my 'early portables' filter.My justification would be that i don't really have a lot of additional experience to offer outside of the narrow focus I have made.
 

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Paul Richardson

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01/05/2020
Re: Hornsby Akroyd colour scheme

The fledgling organisation owned a launch or a yacht of some kind named the Evangel.This boat was powered by a Hornsby Akroyd oil engine.Perhaps somebody might search out some more information on it?
Quoting myself yet again,..it's not hard to get the wrong info here!
The first 'Evangel' (1906) was powered by a 20hp Gardner.There was aparently a string of 'Evangel'(s)? each replacing the last, as the organisation grew in strength.
The 'Daphne' was a sailboat that predated all of these and I am thinking,as this was the pioneering vessel used,that this will be the H.A. powered(auxiliary) vessel mentioned in the book I read?
 

typak

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Last Subscription Date
07/30/2019
Re: Hornsby Akroyd colour scheme

Hello Paul, reading about boats built in Sydney alone built for the missionary society and similar institutions and the list of engines fitted is quite extensive, many coming back for refits many times, 'oil' engines were popular for the more exotic destinations as the kerosene oil market reached the most remote places .The Hornsby vertical marine engines certainly were used in general here in a number of sizes as press articles of the time describe, here is a pic of a Gardner I recorded at Clarendon and a pic of another HA from the interweb perhaps wearing the incorrect tag ?
 

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Winchester

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I had a phone conversation wirh a friend who had a lot to do with the MPC Ackroyd engine ..............he told me that the earlier girder HA that was owned by Rex Downie ran in the opposite rotation to the later HA MPC engine .
 

Paul Richardson

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01/05/2020
When I saw the Rex Downie engine running Winchester I wasn't surprised to see it running with the flywheel turning over anticlockwise with the rim of the flywheel turning over at the top towards the cylinder,instead of away at the top as seems to be usual for a lot of engines.
I noticed that the one in this thread pictured shedded beside the 20hp stationary in Patricks photos runs anticlockwise when facing the flywheel as well.It's a later 5hp portable with a cast base.
I think most of the stationary models are designed to turn the flywheel(s) away from the cylinder at the top?
Somewhere in the sales literature I'm pretty sure that mention is made about larger portables being designed to run anticlockwise while looking at the engine from the flywheel side?(One example can be seen up above here in our thread, in the diagram on the right in post#69,having a rotation indicating arrow included)The few very similar 6.5hp engines to Rex's I have seen started have all run in the same direction as Rex's engine.
The two engines you mention above Winchester are both of the same epoch as far as design goes.Both would be regarded as being of the first main design or model that was in manufacture up until that time.Both are a year or two ahead of any major shift in design becoming available.
The one main difference between the two engines is that one is stationary and the other is a dedicated 'portable type'.I personally wouldn't regard the two as different models,but rather differing types of the same model.
The only question I have had in my mind about that at the time that I first looked at the MPC engine was about who may have supplied wheels and carriage etc,and was it possible that they were an original fitting from the manufacturer?
As you can see with all of our too-ing and fro-ing with exhausts and tinware and the likes overlapping and remaining after each model upgrade or change,i don't think it's wise to say "no never"!?
The portable that was over there in the West was the earliest in that form that I know of,and possibly even the earliest of that type surviving in existence,but that type may not be the first of units set loose from the maker with wheels underneath?The 'very early' boiler mounted units are an example.Perhaps your source of knowledge on the two engines over there may consider the two engines to be both factory portables?Before I am corrected here,i am aware that the carriage setup itself may well be a fairly modern remake,but the wheels and axles etc may not?
 

Winchester

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I can certainly phone my friend Paul............bit late at the moment as he may have gone to bed ,however I shall contact him , Oh hell l why not now ,I'll give him a ring now......................
The MPC HA engine started life in a foundry in Fremantle WA where as far as it is known was belted to a lineshaft for fettling wheels ' it was not a portable .
It was later sold and went to a farm not far from Perth ,possibly in the Avon Valley. There it was sat on the ground and belted to a chaff cutter. It fell into disrepair and various parts where removed and scattered around . When the MPC obtained the engine some excavation was needed to reclaim these parts and it was eventually restored under the supervision of the late Bert Tyler and a crew of helpers . The four CI wheels were obtained and donated by Rex Downie's brother Bill who was also farming . The wheels were at first fitted without a steering turn table , this was latter fitted. When the engine is now run it is jacked up ,wheels removed and sits on wooden blocks .
This information has been conveyed to me from one of the original restorers.
 

Tranter

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Thanks Winchester,i am wondering now how Tranter is feeling about the full blown hijack of his 'colour thread'?
The ball on the top of the governor shaft where the ball yokes couple to it was kept there until about 1901 - 02 until it was changed for a straight spigot like Tranters engine and my own.Or at least the units I have seen demonstrate that?The beaded edge at the top of the centre ball disappeared along with that change.Tranters has a little sharpish lip at the top,which became a much fatter and more pronounced chamfered lip beginning some time early into the '05 units.
The preheat furnace in your drawing has a raised floor,and I'm pretty sure now that this one is also physically smaller than the one used on larger units like #1951.I found that out recently trying to help out another enthusiast with a small hp H.A. stationary model.Heavy style portables like mine have a single lamp of a similar size to #1951.Larger horsepower units in the heavy style use two lamps.This is the case with 12.5hp and 16hp heavy style portables. I suspect a 9.5hp without the water jacketed hotbulb would also use 2.(not sure)
The venruri?,..or what some people call the wick in the furnace was altered in height sometime after #6000s as well.Thats the little cast iron tube in the centre of the furnace having a waisted section toward the bottom.The footing on the one in your drawing is typical at around 1 1/2" high?I found one for a 6.5 hp identical to my own in a rubbish dump that had plenty of added height there.
A conformity in alterations made to components such as this shown in surviving units might help to debunk a myth that some of these engines of the early style may have been held over by the manufactuer and then sold later?Adding or subtracting height from this part will alter or trim the furnace flame,which would show that the manufacturer was still attempting to develop or improve their product at the time. The part I found was a badly heat effected one original to the engine that was once there on the property.A replacement had been purchased for it from Ruston and Hornsby in Melbourne by the original owner some 40 or 50 years after the engine was purchased.
I also scratched around and found the spark arrester for the hotbulb cover,which really made my day!
I haven't checked back to this thread for a couple of months, I suprised at the topics covered and I am finding the conversation fascinating! So I dont mind at all!
 

Winchester

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If my memory serves me correctly that engine Rodney, was sold to a member of the MPC by the university along with several other engines . It was not an Akroyd engine
 
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