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Kohler 6.5R22 in ROUGH shape

Vanman

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
06/10/2020
BUT, it runs and generates!

Model 6.5R22
Serial 266741
Spec 5017B

I just picked this up last weekend, the second project in a week lol. But I'll work on this one first since I have a more immediate potential use for it. The other is a 1A21. I've always wanted one of those. Best for last. Well, maybe I'll work on them concurrently :)

To start with the long list of troubles with the 6.5R22, the oil is milky (water in the oil???), and I want to change it and the filter. What is the correct grade of oil for balmy Southern California?

The filter that's on it is a Napa Gold 7011. Is this correct? Is there a common, inexpensive brand of filter I can use in it's place for testing purposes?

Once the unit is proven, I'll put in good oil and a good filter on it.

Thanks,
Keith
 

Attachments

bigGURN

Registered
Last Subscription Date
04/01/2012
the filter should be right, the much more affordable Fram is a C-159 (same as a lot of the AC tractors take). Usually the Fram is under 8 dollars at O'reilly's. As for oil, I would drain, start with regular non-detergent 30W and as it does sound like water, I'd run it and figure on changing the oil and filter another time or two. Also, make sure the water contamination isn't from an internal issue (leaking seal, gasket, crack, etc...) Nice little unit! here is the cross reference for all the other potential filter numbers if you can't find the Fram http://www.framcatalog.com/PartDetail.aspx?b=F&pn=C159
 

DKamp

Registered
PLEASE... don't run it with milky oil!!!

Sounds like you've got a winner... clean it up good, get all the crud out, make sure it's got clean lubrication, then thorougly test it, watch closely... listen for problems, look for leaks... then put it to work!

By the way... it's not in rough shape. ;-)
 

Vanman

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
06/10/2020
Oh, I haven't run it, and won't until I get the oil changed. But the guy I bought if from did demonstrate it briefly....

The rough shape is mainly the electrical lol. I believe it's supposed to be remote start and have high temperature and low oil pressure shut downs, but EVERYTHING is disconnected and / or by passed. Literally to start it, you touch the cables to a battery, and let go when it's running. Ground the mag to stop it.

But electrical stuff is my specialty, so it should be no trouble getting it all working again, so long as nothing expensive has failed lol.

I'll update my progress (hopefully!) as I fix things and have questions...

Keith
 

Thaumaturge

In Memory Of
Age
69
Last Subscription Date
07/12/2019
My family had an older version of this same unit that supplied power for a remote cabin before the power company finally ran their lines in. After an initial valve relap it ran without issue for years. The thing that comes to mind re: milky oil, is the head gasket. If you are reluctant to yank the head try running compressed air into each cylinder (rotating engine to close valves in turn, look at distributor arm for firing position.) If air bubbles into cooling system you;ve found your culprit.
Doc
 

Vanman

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
06/10/2020
Doc,

That's a fantastic idea, and I'll do just that, before I even buy any oil or a filter. The oil level isn't too high, and the water level isn't low, so I'm *hoping* that because it was left out in the weather- rain or shine- by the previous owner, that rain water got in somewhere, perhaps through the loose fitting dipstick.

There was coolant around the spark plug nearest the radiator, however. I didn't notice that until after I got it home. I'm hoping the water neck gasket leaked and it ran in there, or the guy spilled some in there or anything but a cracked head... I've cleaned it thoroughly and haven't seen anything reappear there yet, but I obviously haven't run it yet either... I thought of pressurizing the cooling system to a few psi, but I'll try your idea of pressurizing the cylinders first.

Keith
 

DKamp

Registered
Keith- when looking at the generator from the radiator end, the first bolt in on the rightish side... if I remember correctly, that one leaked on mine when I was trying to get it to settle down. I pulled the bolt out, swapped with another (thinking the bolt threads were worn and not sealing). It made no difference. Threads weren't corroded or worn... I chased them very lightly (fingers holding tap) just to make sure there wasn't a bad spot worn in them, and they fit snug to the tap. End story- I coated the threads with teflon pipe seal (the brush-on) and ran it down, and I think it took about 8 additional flt-lbs to get it to seal. FWIW, the head was dead-flat, so I'm not sure why it was finicky.

IF you find that it doesn't seem to cool well, pull the head and water pump off, dig through the holes in the top of the block, and also in the head, and flood a whole bunch of water through it, flush out the crud. Mine seemed fine with exception of just ONE hole partially blocked... and when I got it chipped clean and started flooding, I found that more and more crap started running out as I dug into it... I wound up using a long piece of one of my old bass guitar strings in a cordless drill to flail around in the passages and clean it out. (for those interested, it was a broken low D 0.130 RotoSound Swing Bass 5, with the ball end still attached at the far end. I seem to break the low strings often)

Water pumps... getting replacement pumps is a challenge, but rebuilding the existing pump is inexpensive and easy provided you know how it comes apart, and use the proper tools... a hydraulic press, snap-ring pliers, and some proper measuring tools will fit a general-purpose (cut-to-length type) water pump bearing and modern seal will make it like new. I wrote it all up somewhere on the forum, and included part numbers and a narrated pictoral.
 

Vanman

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
06/10/2020
Thanks for the tips. I'll keep an eye out for leaking around the bolts.

The guy said that the water pump and the fuel pump were rebuilt. The fuel pump looks shiny and clean, but the water pump looks untouched and just as rusty as the rest lol. But maybe it does have a new bearing and seal.

While the engine does have an oil pressure gauge (it was indicating 30 lbs during the brief time I saw it run), it unfortunately does not have a temperature gauge. But I have an old meat thermometer reserved just for that purpose- I just leave it in the radiator fill to monitor temperature :) I have an antique 5,000 watt studio light which should give it something to do to get it warm <grin> That and a 1500 watt heater and we'll have enough for a full load test.
 

Mike G

Registered
Last Subscription Date
12/11/2014
Keith,

Looks like you got a nice generator there.

You might want to flush the oil pan out. Mine had lots of rust and crud. I was able to flush it out with an electric fuel pump and some kerosene. Used a 1/4 in copper tube to reach in through the drain hole and filler hole to flush everything clean. Spent several hours doing this. Smashing the end of the copper tube helps create a nozzle, and subsequently a higher velocity stream of kero. This method even lets you rinse off the crankshaft. Refill with oil and crank it on the battery to lube everything back up before starting.

Can you post a photo of your oil filter setup? Mine does not have this option installled.

If you need manuals, feel free to PM me and I will send you the piles of info I have gather up on these over the past few years.

Mike
 

Vanman

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
06/10/2020
I finally got all of the necessary stuff assembled to air test the cylinders today. I saw no evidence of air bubbles or level change in the antifreeze. Yay!

I did hear some noise at the crankcase vent, as one would expect, and also did hear some noise in the exhaust and the intake. So she's got leaky valves. I don't think they're bad, and am planning on leaving them alone for now. It sure seemed to run great when the guy demonstrated it for me when I bought it....

Now I can get on with changing the oil and filter, and flushing out the water and what ever other crud may be in the oil pan.

Then on to the electrical. EVERYTHING has been disconnected or bypassed, save for maybe the compounding transformer. Anybody have the schematics for a C-245414 controller? I searched the site and only found something referencing it 5 years ago....

Keith
 

DKamp

Registered
I got a good diagram off my machine (also a 6.5r22), I can send you a PDF of it, and any other photos or notes you'd like.

I'd imagine that a little hissing out the crankcase is just from blowing past the rings. If you were sixty years old, you'd pass a little pressure too... :D If it runs good, run it! You may find that once it's warmed up and worked a bit, that the rings free up and seat better. Mebbie throw a little sea-foam or Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel?
 

LWB250

Registered
Then on to the electrical. EVERYTHING has been disconnected or bypassed, save for maybe the compounding transformer. Anybody have the schematics for a C-245414 controller? I searched the site and only found something referencing it 5 years ago....

Keith
Contact one of the old line distributors, such as Buckeye Power in Columbus, OH, or TAW Power Systems in Tampa, FL. Be sure to ask for the Service Dept., not parts!

They can email a scan to you, typically at no charge.

Dan
 

Vanman

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
06/10/2020
Please look for my question at the end :)

Today I removed the oil drain plug. Ugh! First, water came out, but at least it wasn't rusty. After the water it just kind of stopped for a moment. Then, it appeared to vomit in slow motion, as this tan colored stuff came out in big glops. Eventually, quite a bit of liquid as well as gloppy stuff came out.

So I put some diesel fuel in (didn't have kerosene handy) at the oil fill, and it took it a several seconds to start coming out the drain! But it did, and it pushed out more gloppy stuff with it. Then I put in the plug and added some more diesel, and left if for an hour or so.

Upon draining after that, it was definitely better, though the diesel was coming out creamy colored- still picking up sludge. So I flushed it with some more diesel, and tipped the unit toward the drain end to help move things along.

Then I put in the plug and filled it all the way up to the top of the dipstick hole with diesel, and left it to sit until the next time I work on it. The diesel definitely appears to dissolve the creamy sludge, just not quickly.

Now, for the question:
Would it be bad to spin it with the starter for awhile with the spark plugs out, while the crankcase is filled brim full with diesel??? I'd love it if the rods would dip into it and thoroughly splash it around in there.... :)

Thanks,
Keith
 

Thaumaturge

In Memory Of
Age
69
Last Subscription Date
07/12/2019
I see no problem with that, other than overheating the starter. I'd keep your crankovers short and give the starter cool down time. But isn't that a hand crank just in front of the radiator? Shouldn't take much effort at all to hand crank it with the plugs out. The one my family owned at our cabin didn't have the electric start option. Don't recal it being difficult even with full compression. I remember my father teaching me how to hold the crank so any kickback would yank it out of my hand rather than breaking my wrist. Sorry, just reminissing.
Doc
 

Vanman

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
06/10/2020
Thanks Doc,

I like the reminiscing! It's great to hear from people who've had hands on experience.

Unfortunately for me the hand crank has been damaged and cannot be used. It looks like it must have been hit and bent. I'll fix it someday :)

But fortunately for me, this one is exciter cranked. My guess is a motor that size wouldn't ever overheat lol. But I'll keep an eye on it :)

I was more concerned with diesel fuel as a bearing lubricant, hence leaving the plugs out to minimize the bearing load. Just about anything's got to be a better lubricant than the goopy stuff that was in there though!

Thanks,
Keith
 

Vanman

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
06/10/2020
Hey guys,

I got it running today, but not without much trouble. When I bought it, and the guy demonstrated it for me, it ran flawlessly. Started instantly, and ran smoothly.

When I went to run it for the first time since I've had it home, it started instantly, and ran smoothly for several seconds. Oil pressure came right up to 20 lbs. I noted the frequency was low at around 52 cycles, so I began adjusting it and had it almost up to speed when it started running just TERRIBLY! I tried adjusting the mixture, I tried varying the choke, yet nothing made any improvement. For the life of me I could not determine if it wanted more or less fuel. If I held the throttle at idle, it would idle, though not really smoothly.

Since I've had it home all I've done to the engine is drain and flush the crap out of the crankcase, and air pressure test the cylinders. The governor was VERY Micky Moused, complete with a crappy homemade spring, such that it was very lazy, only reaching about half throttle when the engine is stopped. I re-adjusted the governor so that it works much better now, but I really need a better spring to make it perform as well as it should.

I took apart the carburetor, and found that it was indeed full of crap. So I blew out all the passages, and cleaned out the bowl, and put it back together only to find that it made absolutely no difference lol. Don't you love it when that happens :) I was about to call it a day, but decided to try it one more time. Low and behold, it sort of gradually began clearing up and running better, and before long at all it was purring along at 58 cycles with the throttle just barely cracked open. I turned her to 60-1/2 cycles or so, and I could hold the throttle to idle and she'd idle smoothly, I could let go and she'd jump right back up to speed. I ran it for several minutes like this with no further trouble.... Awesome! Right?

But not very confidence inspiring for an emergency generator lol. I was completely baffled for awhile. I envisioned all sorts of stuff while it wasn't running right- the impulse coupling somehow making the timing REALLY late, skipped tooth on the cam and or magneto, sudden trouble with the magneto itself, etc. etc.

But then it occurred to me that the fuel line between the pump and the carburetor is very old rubber. Something I learned fairly recently is that old rubber fuel line sheds particles into the fuel, and end up clogging the carburetor. I'm betting this is my problem here too. I want to put a metal line there, but the carburetor doesn't look like it has a threaded connection. It looks like it has a piece of tubing pressed into it instead. Perhaps I can flare the end of that and use a flare coupling to extend it all the way to the pump....

Keith
 

LWB250

Registered
But then it occurred to me that the fuel line between the pump and the carburetor is very old rubber. Something I learned fairly recently is that old rubber fuel line sheds particles into the fuel, and end up clogging the carburetor. I'm betting this is my problem here too. I want to put a metal line there, but the carburetor doesn't look like it has a threaded connection. It looks like it has a piece of tubing pressed into it instead. Perhaps I can flare the end of that and use a flare coupling to extend it all the way to the pump....

Keith
They can also swell as they deteriorate, much like brake lines. With that in mind, you might find that it runs fine at no load, but as you increase load it starts to falter.

Definitely change out that line.

Dan
 

Vanman

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
06/10/2020
Here's my first video of the plant running, in what was supposed to be the first load test, but, alas, it ended up being an unloaded run lol. Turns out there's been a loose connection in the studio light that's been frying since well before I got it, and it finally broke free before this test. So now I'm UP one more project! :)

Keith

http://youtu.be/SG2ijeHexoY
 

Vanman

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
06/10/2020
This time I was able to make a loaded test run. Much more entertaining! The link to the film is at the bottom....

I was able to make some temporary repairs to the 5kw Mole Richardson studio lamp, such that the generator could be tested with a load of about 75% of rated capacity. Next time I'll have to add one 1,500 watt lamp, for a full load test :) The initial power requirements of a tungsten lamp are MUCH greater when first thrown on the line, with the filament cold. This isn't terribly noticeable with ordinary sized lamps, as their thermal mass is very low, but it is VERY significant with a 5,000 watt light bulb! You can see the governor backing off as the lamp warms up to operating temperature :) I noted the voltmeter dipped to a low of about 90 volts, but this is just a digital meter, so who knows what it may have missed due to it's sampling rate.

As with every generator it seems I'm able to get, this one has been hacked up or otherwise abused or neglected. The governor spring is homemade(!) and is WAY too stiff. As a result the speed droop with load is significant, even when adjusted for minimum droop. Over 63 cycles at no load, down to 58 or so with the 5k running.... I'm sure I can select a better spring from the hardware store lol.

There is a fair amount of blowby coming from the crankcase vent, though the exhaust appears to be clear. In addition to all of the other hackings, the air cleaner is missing the bowl part that would hold oil, and had just an oily rag in it's place, so who knows how much dust has been ingested causing piston ring and cylinder wear. The engine does run very well, though, so I'll tolerate blowby and some oil consumption so long as it'll pull rated load....

Keith

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-pcwto-ofI
 

Vanman

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
06/10/2020
Hello guys,

Does anyone have any advice on where to get a suitable cranking contactor? I don't know what to search for..... 12 volt contactor, maybe? I figured someone on here already knows of a source....

I realize I could use a standard automotive one, but I don't like how those burn out in short order if left in the circuit for very long at all. I think it would burn out before the thermal switch would trip, if the engine failed to start. I want to get a continuous rated one.

I've been tinkering with the remote control circuitry, as it had all been bypassed, and / or connected incorrectly. From testing thus far it seems that only the cranking contactor is bad (an automotive one at that!), though the thermal time switch is a little iffy as well. The thermal switch seems to be waking up by cycling it a few times though.

Keith
 
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