• If you like antique engines, vintage tractors or old iron, please register and join us. When registering, please provide your CITY and STATE as your location!

Line Shaft Blacksmith Shop Video

Joel Sanderson

Registered
I just finished a little video of the shop. It shows two hammers in operation: a 100 pound Hackney and a 250 pound Murray, and it also shows both a shaper and a toggle press working hot metal. There are shots of the lathe and surface grinder too. And of course, I had to show the engine starting.

There are pictures of my work too. In them there are a couple tables with arches that were made on the shaper like is shown in the video. The upper frames of some of the tables have bars textured the way the press is doing in the video too.

I hope this is interesting. I'd be happy to answer any questions about what's in the video. It's just sort of meant to be an overview and is not intended to really go into depth on any processes. I plan to do that in the future, but this one's a start at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFBthuMxVlI&feature=youtu.be

Joel
 

RobW

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
06/11/2019
Joel, Not only a good artist but good on the piano as well.
 

Darren Gunderson

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
01/12/2020
Wow, that is really impressive. I dream of having a small line shaft shop someday. I really have to give you a big thumbs up for keeping that vintage equipment and techniques alive and functional. Well done.

Darren
 

Elden DuRand

In Memory Of
Age
78
Last Subscription Date
12/22/2017
Joel:

Thank you for the video. You and your Wife are true artists in metal.

May you two live long and prosper.
 

Joel Sanderson

Registered
Thank you, everyone. I sincerely appreciate the compliments. To be honest, I don't know much about what's going on in the rest of today's blacksmithing world, because I don't get out much among other smiths. That sort of makes me a professional recluse, I suppose. Maybe that's foolish, but hey, there's only so much time in this life.

A toggle press, Akuna, is quite a bit different than a hammer. A hammer's ram is linked to the crank through some sort of spring, which is what gives a hammer its flexibility. Most mechanical hammers have a coil spring (though my Hackney has an air spring) which compresses as the hammer's speed increases, causing the ram (the hammer) to strike harder and lower the faster the machine is run. A press has a solid link, with no spring, so each stroke is exactly the same--the same force, depth and position each cycle. This allows the press to make repeated impressions with greater precision than can be done with a hammer. It cannot, however, make variable shapes like tapers or change with each stroke for hand held tooling.

My press, sometimes called a horn press, has very long ram guides, so it keeps the ram aligned precisely with the table, letting matching top and bottom dies be fitted directly to them. A more common press that came out later is called an Open Back Incline (OBI) press, also casually called a "punch press." Most of these have a looser ram guide, so they usually require a sub press arrangement for precise die alignment.

In the video, I am using the press to make a series of impressions in the bar. The upper die is essentially a fuller. By using a press for this, each impression is the same depth as the preceding one, so my bar stays the same thickness for the entire length. This particular operation can be done with a hammer if you set up a system of kiss blocks to control the depth, but I find I have better control doing it with the press.

Gee that was windy. Hope it helped.

Joel
 

OTTO-Sawyer

Subscriber
Age
57
Last Subscription Date
07/15/2019
Great video !:cool:

Love the line-shaft powered surface grinder.

Never seen a shaper used for actually 'shaping' metal like that before either.

Pretty Cool !:cool:

And even though I see you're on Facebook, I shared it on there on my own page so my small handful of 'friends' can see it too.

:salute:
 

51cub

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
11/10/2020
Thank you for putting that where we can see it! That's a great looking shop, and amazing work! I'd like to be an engine wiper in a shop like yours, just to be able to spend the time there
 

Monsonmotors

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
10/07/2018
Wonderful work and wonderful shop!
I know you are a busy man but I’d love some input from you about setting up a “new” lineshaft shop.
I have about three antique lathes, two drill presses, two power hammers, two horizontal mills, and many bench top belt driven tools, too.
The shop space is only about 25’ x 35’, but the building was built in 1910 so I have the correct ambiance, I think.
Any general or specific advice would be greatly appreciated!
I’m about two years into a three year project (give or take).
 

Attachments

Bill Hazzard

Registered
Last Subscription Date
08/28/2008
The roof framing looks light. You might want to double up on the framing where the hangers will be. It looks like it will be a nice shop when done.
 

Joel Sanderson

Registered
Mansonmotors,

Sorry it took me so long to see your post. That's a nice looking space you have to work with and some nice sounding machines. Bill's right, of course--you'll want to add some beef to those rafters where the hangers'll be.

Make sure you have enough power to each machine. Don't try to use old belts. Old belts are dry, but even if they aren't they've taken a set to whatever position they were in before--meaning they're bent. That makes it really hard to get them to track, and they flop around and cause a nuisance. Buy new ones; it'll be well worth it. I get mine from McMaster-Carr or from Hit and Miss enterprises. Look for "light duty SBR belting." It comes in three, four and five ply. Don't bother with the three ply; it doesn't work well if it's gonna have a load on it. Any time you have a belt shifter (planer, shaper etc) use five ply, because it'll hold up better.

Horse power of a belt is figured by how much belt is contacting the surface of the pulley during a minute. That's it. The faster the pulley runs, the more belt is in contact with it, the more it'll carry. The formula for a horizontal belt is: Feet Per Minute ÷ 600 X the belt's width in inches. A vertical belt will not transmit as much power because the slack side of the belt (which is stretching under load) falls away from the lower pulley, making less contact area. The old literature says that a vertical belt will carry half the load of a horizontal belt, but I've found that with new rubber belts it'll carry about 70%. That's what I figure at least.

I hope that helps.

Joel
 
Last edited:

Noyes

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
02/19/2019
Mansonmotors,

Sorry it took me so long to see your post. That's a nice looking space you have to work with and some nice sounding machines. Bill's right, of course--you'll want to add some beef to those rafters where the hangers'll be.

Make sure you have enough power to each machine. Don't try to use old belts. Old belts are dry, but even if they aren't they've taken a set to whatever position they were in before--meaning they're bent. That makes it really hard to get them to track, and they flop around and cause a nuisance. Buy new ones; it'll be well worth it. I get mine from McMaster-Carr or from Hit and Miss enterprises. Look for "light duty SBR belting." It comes in three, four and five ply. Don't bother with the three ply; it doesn't work well if it's gonna have a load on it. Any time you have a belt shifter (planer, shaper etc) use five ply, because it'll hold up better.

Horse power of a belt is figured by how much belt is contacting the surface of the pulley during a minute. That's it. The faster the pulley runs, the more belt is in contact with it, the more it'll carry. The formula for a horizontal belt is: Feet Per Minute ÷ 600 X the belt's width in inches. A vertical belt will not transmit as much power because the slack side of the belt (which is stretching under load) falls away from the lower pulley, making less contact area. The old literature says that a vertical belt will carry half the load of a horizontal belt, but I've found that with new rubber belts it'll carry about 70%. That's what I figure at least.

I hope that helps.

Joel
Do you offer tours of your shop or have any open house events?
 

Monsonmotors

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
10/07/2018
Joel, did you use Joshua Rose’s book to help you set up your shop? I was told by another lineshaft shop operator that it’s the old machinist’s Bible?
Yes, I’d love a tour of your shop, too. Maybe with a take measure and a clip board!
Yes, now I will only use new belts. Except in the fortunate case shown below where the entire system was lifted at once from a shop just recently. I could probably run those belts since they are going back on?
The timber thing should be well in hand due to our crazy drought in California killing so many trees. Big
lumber is suddenly plentiful. My friends the Boyajians have a private sawmill connection and I will acquire a load of 6” x 8” beams and posts.
I had no idea of load capacity of belts vertical vs. horizontal. Thanks, Don
 

Attachments

Joel Sanderson

Registered
Do you offer tours of your shop or have any open house events?
Yeah, I give quite a few tours. Most of them are folks like you who just want to come by though--hardly a "tour." You're welcome to, but be sure to call first to be sure I'm there or will be doing something interesting. My number's (517)617-5908
 

Joel Sanderson

Registered
Joel, did you use Joshua Rose’s book to help you set up your shop? I was told by another lineshaft shop operator that it’s the old machinist’s Bible?
Yes, I’d love a tour of your shop, too. Maybe with a take measure and a clip board!
Yes, now I will only use new belts. Except in the fortunate case shown below where the entire system was lifted at once from a shop just recently. I could probably run those belts since they are going back on?
The timber thing should be well in hand due to our crazy drought in California killing so many trees. Big
lumber is suddenly plentiful. My friends the Boyajians have a private sawmill connection and I will acquire a load of 6” x 8” beams and posts.
I had no idea of load capacity of belts vertical vs. horizontal. Thanks, Don
I have Rose's Modern Machine Shop Practice--originals too. :) I'm not sure it's quite "bible" status, but they are fun to look at. It's one of those that's been digitalized so a lot of people can access them. I referred to them when I was turning a five step cone pulley for my lathe and needed to know how to figure the diameters. Getting the belt to be under equal tension on all the steps is not as simple as it would seem, I found out. The Machinery Handbook explains how to calculate the diameters too, but, as is typical, it assumes you're an engineer with a higher math background. The explanations in the older books, like Rose, are more clear and often do the math for you. My favorite book which I look in a lot is called Engineers Handy-Book, by Stephen Roper. I have the fifth edition, published by David McKay in 1900.

As long as we're talking about books, another I like is Machinery's Encyclopedia, by the Industrial press (1917). It's a six volume set, a foot tall, and each one's a couple inches thick in fine print. In those is the only place I've found which tells how to figure the energy in a flywheel--at least so I understand it--in determining the power of a press. I doubt anyone's reprinting them though, and finding a set might be hard. Never know though.

I see somebody's reprinted the Machinery Handbook's first edition. What was that, about 1917? Maybe it's more clear than the newer ones. It'd be nice.

About your belts: the odds that you'll mount the countershafts exactly as they were in relation to the line shaft are pretty slim. They're never perfectly parallel, which is why we need crowned pulleys. I'd still run new belts if you're gonna have much load going through them. If you figure the HP you'll need and double it (in other words use pulleys twice as large as necessary) then you can run your belts looser, there's less wear and friction on the bearings, and if you're using old belts, you won't be demanding as much out of them. Trouble is, we don't have hardware stores where we can just order the pulleys we need, so we make do with whatever's on hand.
 

Monsonmotors

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
10/07/2018
Great info, thanks! I need to soak up your smarts. I’m starting near zero. Some of this stuff is pretty obvious. A lot isn’t.
 

Noyes

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
02/19/2019
Yeah, I give quite a few tours. Most of them are folks like you who just want to come by though--hardly a "tour." You're welcome to, but be sure to call first to be sure I'm there or will be doing something interesting. My number's (517)617-5908
Thanks for the offer. Hoping to get up that way this spring I will be sure to call ahead
 

Monsonmotors

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
10/07/2018
Suddenly, I’m trying to think of a way to get out of work and visit your shop, too. Lol
 

Monsonmotors

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
10/07/2018
Hey Joel, reading your blacksmith book suggestion...what the heck is a “clam”?
Dictionary doesn’t know, either. Archaic definition?
 
Top