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Maggie woes On the Sundial

GreasyJohn

Registered
G'day folks i got round to getting on with the Type B Sundial yesterday (cos i needed a break from a fuel issue on the 9G ) and after replacing the inlet valve guide and working out that my little temporary fuel tin had a hole in it away it went. Hurrah much jubilation however.... The magneto i fitted to get it going was a lucas mag and as we know the lucas has a tapered drive shaft and the original ML magneto has a keyed shaft so the timing gear was just pinched on and soon slipped out of time. so it was time to look at the original mag again. On the bench in the vice the mag throws a good spark that will jump a half inch gap with a good audible crack however when fitted to the engine it gets shy and gives nothing. A bit of info regarding fitment i am missing the mounting bolts so it is currently held on with a bolt i found ( surprisingly i have very few imperial nuts and bolts in the shed ) and when cranking the thing over im using the jacked up ride on lawn mower as a starter throw it in reverse and butt the belt pulley up against the rear wheel so its nearly turning at working speed. Now when it comes to fitting maggies ive never given them much thought just thrown them on and voila they work the Wallis maggy has been on and off more times than ive had hot meals due to timing issues and ive never had a problem with it. Do i semply need to clean up the mounting plate and where the mounting plate bolts to the hopper for a good earth or is there something else im missing ? any input would be appreciated folks ...
 

eddie bedwell

Registered
Hi John,
maybe check for earth continuity and resistance between the mounted Maggie base and the spark plug with a multi meter.
One an engine of mine (Jelbart) that the Maggie is long way from the s/plug with many bolted on bits between them that can have electrical isolation or resistance so to get past this I have a small wire between the Maggie base and the spark plug case for surer earthing continuity with the spark plug.
Am actually using a thread reducer/adapter to get past using a taper thread S/plug and so I have a tang soldered to the adapter to connect said wire to--I tend to look at it as being that it effectively becomes its own closed electrical circuit independent of any paint, rust isolated hopper mount etc.
Too long a mounting bolt may short something out inside the Maggie too I guess, if the threads go right thru the base??
Your experience may vary.

Cheers,
Eddie B.
 

AussieIron

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
02/04/2020
I've had the same mag problem G J, it is mystifying some times. Eddie above gives good advice. How are you testing spark when on engine? Just that sometimes just having thread of sparkplug resting on head or whatever, so you can see spark ,will not work. Also, spinning by hand on a bench can often spin mag faster than the engine will when starting. If you can, just hold wire end near bare metal on engine and crank and have a look. Sounds obvious, I know. Also paint between mag base and mag bracket can be a problem. Glad to see that I'm not the only one that's had this problem! :)
 

cobbadog

Registered
Yes, spinning it in the vice usually means it is spinning faster than on the engine. Curious as to how good or bad the spark is when it is bolted to the engine and rotated at cranking speed. Always have a good clean contact between maggy and mounting bracket.
 

Scotty 2

Registered
When you say "it gives nothing", what does that mean exactly?

Did you try sitting the spark plug on the magneto and cranking to see if there's spark?
Go to the bolt shop and buy some more bolts.
Has your Sundial got the crank handle thingo in the flywheel?
How did you time the magneto when you put it on?

I thought all ML's had a tapered shaft so you could disregard the key if need be. What model ML is the magneto?
 
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GreasyJohn

Registered
hello Scotty when i say it gives nothing i mean we have no spark no spark at the points no spark at the lead. i am yet to place the plug on the maggy and check for spark, i will be getting new bolts and pull the mounting plate off clean all that up to bare metal and where it mounts to the hopper. yep its got the thingo on the do dad. To time i set the engine at about 3mm past TDC and then set the mag so the points were just cracked(i use a rizzla paper and do the tug test). Im not sure what model of ML mag it is but its a boxy type with a straight drive and a key way. while i have you knowlageable chaps here what is the best setting for the mixture needle ?
 

Scotty 2

Registered
So here is a silly question. Does the magneto turn the right way when on the engine? Use the thingo on the do-dad instead of the mower.
A picture of the magneto would be good as I think it may be a very early ML if it hasn't got a tapered shaft. Has the gear got a taper in it?

First thing is to get spark. The timing is another issue as it's before top dead centre.
 

GreasyJohn

Registered
hello Scotty the maggie is rotating in the correct direction on the engine made sure of that, i hesitant to use the thingo on the jobby until i have the thing dialled in i was bitten by my wallis once getting it timed right as a result im cautious (not scared) to go cranking engines over till its right, You are correct the mag is an early one but there are no tapers on either the shaft or in the gear. This is the best picture i can provide of the mag at the moment when i get out to the shed i will take a better one.
 

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Mick

Subscriber
Last Subscription Date
07/12/2019
The mags and gears always have a taper, i have owned many many different ml mags and they all have taper shafts. Take a pic of the mag shaft and gear when u can
 

karragullengine

Registered
Mags are pretty good at jumping the earth so i doubt that's your problem. If you were spinning it with a drill in vice that would be at a very fast speed, even flicking them by hand is much faster than engine cranking speed as mentioned. I'd change the condensor first off. If no good I'd be stripping the mag and checking all insulating parts. Have you checked the coil, easy to do with a cheap multimeter.
 

Scotty 2

Registered
Hello all
I'm a bit confused here. Has the engine been running with the Lucas magneto? It's mentioned in the initial post. "The magneto i fitted to get it going was a lucas mag"
If so then it's the ML magneto that's the problem. The settings such as mixture that were there when running with the Lucas magneto should not need to be moved for running with the ML. The groundings should not be a problem either if the Lucas magneto had the engine running.
Timing should be done while there's no chance of the engine starting. Do the timing with the spark plug out but still connected to the spark plug lead and sitting on some bare metal..
Spinning the engine up with the ride-on could cause more initial starting issues then using the thingo on the jobby. The engine could simply be turning too fast and the governor is working.
I'd still like to know what magneto the ML is. Purely for educational proposes.
 

Scotty 2

Registered
Mags are pretty good at jumping the earth so i doubt that's your problem. If you were spinning it with a drill in vice that would be at a very fast speed, even flicking them by hand is much faster than engine cranking speed as mentioned. I'd change the condensor first off. If no good I'd be stripping the mag and checking all insulating parts. Have you checked the coil, easy to do with a cheap multimeter.
Those magneto's with the coils on the armature have a carbon brush for grounding as well. I've seen a lot that are stuck in their holder or simply worn out. Not many people check them and the first thing I check if the HT coil resistance reading is wonky. The only tricky bit is finding it.
 

karragullengine

Registered
Hello all
I'm a bit confused here. Has the engine been running with the Lucas magneto? It's mentioned in the initial post. "The magneto i fitted to get it going was a lucas mag"
If so then it's the ML magneto that's the problem. The settings such as mixture that were there when running with the Lucas magneto should not need to be moved for running with the ML. The groundings should not be a problem either if the Lucas magneto had the engine running.
Timing should be done while there's no chance of the engine starting. Do the timing with the spark plug out but still connected to the spark plug lead and sitting on some bare metal..
Spinning the engine up with the ride-on could cause more initial starting issues then using the thingo on the jobby. The engine could simply be turning too fast and the governor is working.
I'd still like to know what magneto the ML is. Purely for educational proposes.
Plus he mentioned timing it just past tdc instead of before tdc which would cause it to bark too and run a bit rough.
 

GreasyJohn

Registered
Right gents been out to the shed firstly Scotty i apologise but yes the ML shaft is tapered please except my humble apologies now the mag is a ML ck1 i have included a picture i found on the google. It turns out that i had the drive gear on the lucas back to front hence why it would seem that it had no taper i did not even think to check witch way round the gear went. Now i also agree that if the lucas works but the ML does not then it is the magneto not the mounting. ive got some flat pack draws to assemble this morning *groan* but will refit the lucas this afternoon and have another go, as for my fuel needle question i cant remember how i set it when i had it running, like most mixer/carbs i would set it to 1.1/2 turns and go from there but if anyone knows any different with these id be glad to know. again apologies for not having all my ducks in a row before i cam and asked and thank you for all your assistance







p.s dont tell numbat but its the mag of his lister D im using : )
 

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cobbadog

Registered
It is no issue owning up to making a slight mistake. Main thing is now you can get on with the job and make some progress which is good. Hope to heat that it is running like a clock soon.
 

GreasyJohn

Registered
MAGGIE WOES ON THE SUNDIAL PART DEUX

In the words of everyone's fave potty mouthed name jumping forum resident F@#K mag F*$k s&!t cow farting magneto f^%k s$!t F^%k. ahem so i put it on Numbats Lister D and the damn thing fired right off the bat no faffing around one compression and it was away and ran strong as an ox :faint:So Numbat now has a nice ML maggie and i will make do with a ratty looking lucas anyways me and the Mrs and tiddler sat and watched the dial run for an hour while we had cheese and ham toasties for lunch in preparation for what will be our first time behind the rope in the spring time ( Mrs and Babby are fine with it was more training for me to sit still). anyways back to the Lister D after it fired up and ran brilliantly a bit later i went to start it and it refused i eventually got it going by holding the choke open it ran but required constant adjustment of the needle to keep it going and was rough as guts. I noticed that it was breathing a bit out of the rocker cover before so im going to put it down to needing a good decoke and the valves lapping in a bit. so having never had a lister box appart is there anything i should know before i get in to it anything that may catch me out or cause me greif ? and with the carby the air flap choke dodah has some adjustment with the lock nut and the like but what does it actually do? any advice would be grand chaps.



P.s While i have your attention the Mrs really wants a nice open crank Hit and Miss engine she has a fancy for turner simplicity engines ( see this is all her fault ) if anyone in the WA area knows of anything let me know does not have to be a turner but something along those lines would be dandy
 

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