Reeves 40-140 Canadian Special Engine

Beth V

Moderator
With all of the flap:rolleyes: going on about the 40 Reeves:D , the 110 Case, etc.....my question is what happened to all of the 40 Reeves? How many were made?

I'm attaching one of my favorite pictures from Gary's Gallery (thanks for allowing me to "borrow" it!.) I can't say the idea of having 2 steam engines out in that weather makes me want to attempt it!

Beth:wave:
 

Attachments

Re: 40-140 Reeves

Beth,
Thanks for posting my photo of Frank Strouf's stuck 40-140 Canadian Special and the rescuing 40-120 US model near the town of Coffee Creek, Montana, on Wolf Creek. They were moving a house to Strouf's farm in the winter, but notice the crew on hand and a year around thing.

There were 50 or 51 Forty hp Reeves engines. Two were built in 1908 and one went to the state fairs, while the other was sold in Hanley, Alberta (I'm pretty sure? Maybe it was Saskatchewan?) Canada, to William Rouse. In 1909 there were two batches of one dozen of them made, in the US configuration. It was at this time Reeves was having to retool for the Canadian trade, as the US engine would no longer make it across the border. There were two more batches of 40 Canadian Specials built. The earlier batch used the Broderick Brothers butt strap boilers and the later ones used the Titusville Iron Works butt strap boilers. This is a total of 50 of the 40 hp Reeves engines. The Canadians operated at 175psi. The US engines at 150 psi in their Brownell lap seam boilers.

There were at least 16 of them that I was able to locate information or history on in my home state of Montana. Why did I say there may have been 51 of them? Charlie Tyler of Moore, Montana looked at a US 40 in the Havre, Montana area in the early days, but after the original steam era. It was purportedly not much more than a 32 Reeves double simple with the double simple motor replaced by a 40hp cross compound motor. Charlie Tyler was one of the many old steam men who picked up on the resurection era in the late 1940s and early 1950s. He was also one of the many who ventured to the Pugsley farm on the Marias River looking to buy the "Smolik" 40. Pugsleys were asking $4000 for this 40 and most collectors were paying anywhere from $50 to $300 for running steam engines, so this was a shock to their system. After the Pugsleys accepted Ray Smolik's offer for $3750, Charlie Tyler headed back to the Havre farm where he'd looked at the US 40 and it had recently been scrapped. Max Tyler told me his dad sat in their shop and "wept like a baby for a day" after missing out on both of these engines. He then proceeded up to Babe Lewis' sawmill and bought the old 32hp cc Canadian Special "Otten Reeves", #7181. After buying this fine engine for $900 CASH, he then put 32 Reeves cc CS #6269 for sale and Charlie Harrison eventually bought it. You know the rest of that story.

I have a photo of what it believed to be Charlie Tyler's "Havre" engine. It is thought the engine was an early "prototype" and from what I can acertain, was not part of the original count of two, plus four batches of a dozen. I will post a photo of this engine from my gallery. My second photo is of the "first official one", #5143 at the Reeves factory and none other than Harry Clay is up in the operators cab. The third photo is of the Kersons Brothers and their three 40hp Canadian Special oil burners. I have a few more photos of 40 hp Reeves engines and hope to someday put a small book together about the 40hp Reeves. If anyone cares to send me scans of their 40hp Reeves photos, I'd love to be indebted to them too! Beth, to answer your first question, "what happened to all of them?", I think old age and WWII did them in?
Gary;)





 
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ChadYelland

New member
Re: 40-140 Reeves

the WDM has there 32 in storage now, there are misc parts of another engine outside! they claim its a 40 can i measure the boiler or something to find out what it isi belive the smokebox door casting numbers are the same so i was thinking its just another 32, theres a boiler and frount wheels, crank shaft, smokebox door and ring, cylinders and mabe a couple gears and one rear wheel?? :shrug:
 
Re: 40-140 Reeves

ChadYelland said:
the WDM has there 32 in storage now, there are misc parts of another engine outside! they claim its a 40 can i measure the boiler or something to find out what it isi belive the smokebox door casting numbers are the same so i was thinking its just another 32, theres a boiler and frount wheels, crank shaft, smokebox door and ring, cylinders and mabe a couple gears and one rear wheel?? :shrug:
Chad,
I have photos of the pile of 40hp parts there. It is too bad the museum and Mark Pedersen couldn't get together with their parts. Mark had tried years ago but couldn't overcome the government ownership parts. I know he would have spent whatever it took to build that engine. Mark has a 40hp Broderick boiler in Fargo, ND.

I am not sure about your boiler. There is one Broderick Brothers boiler up there that is from a 32hp double simple, as the exhaust pipes are still on it. The other could be an actual 40hp? It would be taller in the firebox than the 32, but I don't have the measurements with me. The rest of the parts (smokebox door ring) and all barrel parts would be the same. I'll help you chase it further, if you want help.

I'm pretty sure the motor you have up there is from an early US engine, but I know there are some good heads out there that could overcome that, by mixing US and Canadian Special parts. It would sure be nice to have another going.
Gary;)
 
Re: 40-140 Reeves

Chad,
I found two photos of "40"hp Broderick Brothers boilers somewhere up there. Melvin Pierce sent me the photos. If either of these are what you speak of, neither one are 40hp boilers. They are both 32hp double simples.

The first one, below, still has the double simple exhaust pipes in place.



This second one is short in the firebox and notice the upper - side water tank mounting bracket is at the middle section of the boiler barrel. The 40hp water tanks mount about 8" higher than this position. Also, those are 16" width front wheels and I'd bet they are 32hp wheels, rather than the very scarce 16" width wheels for the 40hp. Notice how these Broderick Brother boilers have riveted on wing sheets, front and rear, on the firebox. The Titusville Iron Works boilers had the wagon top and wing sheets in one piece.
Gary;)

 
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Beth V

Moderator
Re: 40-140 Reeves

Good information Gary & Chad.

So what is this about being able to put another together, but needing some red tape cut? Put the American & Canadian resources together?:brows:

Tell us more!:wave:

So, if there is 1 out of 50 (+/-) 40 hp's left, how does that compare with the 110 Cases? It seems that most of the current running crop of engines have been pieced together.:eek:

Beth
 
Re: 40-140 Reeves

Beth,
Do you know someone who can cut red tape across the 49th?

I think I could come up with photos of about four Reeves 40hp cabs. There are "a few" other parts setting around, including some wheels or extension rims.

Mark Pedersen would have bought everything he needed to get another 40-140 up and running. He sent divers to the Rosebud River country in southeastern Montana several years ago. Don Bradley knew of a 40hp Reeves he saw on the river banks years ago, when he was doing "Cat" work along the river. I can't remember without checking my notes, as to whether he pushed the 40 into the river for "rip-rap" or what, but being such a steam lover his whole life, I don't think he did that? Years after that, a terrible flood washed the bank out (which I think is when the engine dropped into the river?) and it washed the 40 Reeves away. Mark hoped the divers could find the engine as he desperately needed a front king post, axle and wheels. This particular Reeves 40 did not have a motor on it.

Maybe Chuck can tell us about the ratios. I read an article about the 110hp Case engines several years ago that discussed how more of them survived than examples of Duesenberg automobiles (I'm assuming they meant ratios?). Weren't there 500+ 32hp & 110hp hp Case engines built? And aren't there approximately 30-40 surviving in various states of repair? Chuck should be able to hone those numbers down much better than I have. I think most of them did have a part or two from another engine on them? Some of them had parts from many different engines.

I forget the exact number, but 110 Case man Don Bradley said something like he'd gathered parts from (don't quote me for sure) 23 or more Avery undermounted engines to build the 30 Special (40hp with a 175psi pop valve) he built in the 1970s & 80s. My 1926 Model T Coupe has parts from about 15 different Model Ts, I know. So assembling from parts has become a very common thing in the steam world too.

Does it take special scissors to cut that red tape? Do you own a pair? Do you know someone who does own a pair? Mark has the only Canadian Special 40hp Reeves boiler I know of and I don't think a single one of the US 40hp boilers survived. Maybe if Chad and I can convince them they don't have a 40hp boiler up there, they may relent?
Gary;)
 
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Beth V

Moderator
Re: 40-140 Reeves

Gary,

Very interesting information.....it sounds like a fabulous & worthwhile challege to see what we can accomplish! No, I don't have any magical scissors, but if the right parties are game, you never know what we could accomplish collectively!...Hey Colin, are you up to this challenge?!?!:eek:

Based on your guesstimates, 2% of the 40hp Reeves are running & 7%+/- given the various stages of restoration/completion of the Case 110/32's.

Shall we assemble a list of what is where & see what needs to be done? It appears to be a project that requires brains, $$$$$$$, political saavy, excellent connections, determination, & magic dust.....

I'd be willing to spearhead the initial compilation of items & go from there. I'm sure my "lurker" brothers, Rol & Ken would be most interested.....never know that "female" touch may be of assistance......:brows:

We can keep it offline initially if that is the concensus. Send me a PM if you wish & we'll see what happens!

Beth
 

ChadYelland

New member
Re: 40-140 Reeves

Neither of those is the one of wich i speek, this boiler i think of looks to be in very good shape and has the front wheels inplace is at the WDM CC. :D
 

Colin

New member
Re: 40-140 Reeves

Dad remembers the front wheels that WDM has are for a 32. the motor and diff are the main biggies. never heard that the motor was for an american. would like to see the the parts pile someday
 
Re: 40-140 Reeves

Chad,
I am sorry if you thought I was trying to put words in your mouth. I just assumed they were one in the same, when I saw the front wheels on Melvin's one photo.

Are the wheels on the one you refer to have 20" width front wheels of a 40hp? If so, you've hit a home run. I assume, being north of me, it is a butt strap? Again, I'd have to ask if it has riveted on wing sheets (for my own curiosity) as the Broderick Brothers boiler? If in fact your boiler is a 40hp boiler and has front wheels, that is a great thing.

It isn't a correct 40 Reeves model, but I think I know where there is a Dake steam steering motor that could surely be adapted to do the same job.
Gary;)
 
Re: 40-140 Reeves

Beth,
Of course Ron Smith told me the story about a 40 Reeves (And a 32) at a Canadian sawmill that felt they no longer needed traction engines, but just the boilers. They stripped down the boilers and placed them in the mill, then..... Get This:eek: They dug a hole with a bulldozer and buried the stuff they took off!:rant:
Gary;)
 

Chuck Sindelar

In Memory Of
Re: 40-140 Reeves

20 Reeves Highwheeler said:
Beth,
Do you know someone who can cut red tape across the 49th?

I think I could come up with photos of about four Reeves 40hp cabs. There are "a few" other parts setting around, including some wheels or extension rims.

Mark Pedersen would have bought everything he needed to get another 40-140 up and running. He sent divers to the Rosebud River country in southeastern Montana several years ago. Don Bradley knew of a 40hp Reeves he saw on the river banks years ago, when he was doing "Cat" work along the river. I can't remember without checking my notes, as to whether he pushed the 40 into the river for "rip-rap" or what, but being such a steam lover his whole life, I don't think he did that? Years after that, a terrible flood washed the bank out (which I think is when the engine dropped into the river?) and it washed the 40 Reeves away. Mark hoped the divers could find the engine as he desperately needed a front king post, axle and wheels. This particular Reeves 40 did not have a motor on it.

Maybe Chuck can tell us about the ratios. I read an article about the 110hp Case engines several years ago that discussed how more of them survived than examples of Duesenberg automobiles (I'm assuming they meant ratios?). Weren't there 500+ 32hp & 110hp hp Case engines built? And aren't there approximately 30-40 surviving in various states of repair? Chuck should be able to hone those numbers down much better than I have. I think most of them did have a part or two from another engine on them? Some of them had parts from many different engines.

I forget the exact number, but 110 Case man Don Bradley said something like he'd gathered parts from (don't quote me for sure) 23 or more Avery undermounted engines to build the 30 Special (40hp with a 175psi pop valve) he built in the 1970s & 80s. My 1926 Model T Coupe has parts from about 15 different Model Ts, I know. So assembling from parts has become a very common thing in the steam world too.

Does it take special scissors to cut that red tape? Do you own a pair? Do you know someone who does own a pair? Mark has the only Canadian Special 40hp Reeves boiler I know of and I don't think a single one of the US 40hp boilers survived. Maybe if Chad and I can convince them they don't have a 40hp boiler up there, they may relent?
Gary;)
The number of 32/110s built was over 1000 if you count skid engines as well as tractions. Tractions alone appears to have been 917--as per page 252 of the 1992 Rollag book--That page would have us believe that NO portable engines were built! They show only Traction (engines)(917), skid engines(89), skid-boilers(88), and portable boilers(4). The number known to exist today, including those that have been assembled from parts piles is about 40(which includes a couple skid engines). Although this 40 includes some that are not yet complete enough to do a days work.
chuck
 
Re: 40-140 Reeves

Colin said:
Dad remembers the front wheels that WDM has are for a 32. the motor and diff are the main biggies. never heard that the motor was for an american. would like to see the the parts pile someday
Colin,
I don't have photos of the parts here at work, but I do at home. I'm pretty darn sure (99-7/8% positive) the front motor mount, which is the cross compound's receiver, bolts downward (into steam space) as on the us engines; not into the front of the receiver, from the arched angle iron bracket that is riveted into the top of the boiler of Canadian Special engines. I haven't looked at the picture in the past couple of years, but I have it in my 40 Reeves folder on my home computer and on C-D.
Gary;)
 
Re: 40-140 Reeves

Beth Vanarsdall said:
Gary,
Based on your guesstimates, 2% of the 40hp Reeves are running & 7%+/- given the various stages of restoration/completion of the Case 110/32's.
Beth
Chuck Wrote:
The number of 32/110s built was over 1000 if you count skid engines as well as tractions. Tractions alone appears to have been 917--as per page 252 of the 1992 Rollag book--That page would have us believe that NO portable engines were built! They show only Traction (engines)(917), skid engines(89), skid-boilers(88), and portable boilers(4). The number known to exist today, including those that have been assembled from parts piles is about 40(which includes a couple skid engines). Although this 40 includes some that are not yet complete enough to do a days work.
chuck

Beth,
With my "guess,":bonk: I really threw things off. You'll need to get out your calculator again. It appears the 40 Reeves survived in almost the same percentage as the 32/110hp Case?
Gary;)
 

Beth V

Moderator
Re: 40-140 Reeves

20 Reeves Highwheeler said:
Beth,
Of course Ron Smith told me the story about a 40 Reeves (And a 32) at a Canadian sawmill that felt they no longer needed traction engines, but just the boilers. They stripped down the boilers and placed them in the mill, then..... Get This:eek: They dug a hole with a bulldozer and buried the stuff they took off!:rant:
Gary;)
......and this was how long ago?! I'm sure the scavengers have searched for it?

Chuck's information drops the Case's survival rate to about 4%......and then there WAS the infamous 150.....there is a boiler...with some chunks out of it........:wave:

Beth
 
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