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Winpower 15 Kw G-15c18D

H

hazeldel

Guest
Im hopeing sombody can guide me through Generator basics.So I can Identify the differences between the stater/rectfier and exciter on this Old 4 cylinder generator.Theirs a definite wobble where the brushes ride on the slip rings.Ive tried different suggestions on flashing it and have under 5 volts on the Dc side and nothing on the Ac side of the brushes.Thanks
 

Jim Rankin

Registered
Age
58
First thing to start with is does the AC output come off the rotor (armature) via sliprings or does it come off the stator (stationary outer windings)? Most common is AC off the stator, but there were many smaller generators made with a stationary field/AC output from the rotor.

Next, does the rotor have both a segmented commutator section and smooth sliprings?, How many sliprings?

A commutator indicates DC generation or motoring, can be used for both if designed for starting and generating duty. The generation is used to supply the power for the field and also to charge the battery. Might also have a battery voltage output tap for external battery charging duty on small portable sets.

2 sliprings for rotating field sets (AC output from the stator) are where the field gets its DC+ and DC- connections to the exciter.

3 sliprings could be used for AC output in a stationary field design (L1, N, L2) Don't know if I have ever heard of a 3 phase stationary field design where you would need a slipring for each Line (L1,L2,L3 and possibly one for the Neutral)

The exciter could be either a rotating type with a commutator, or a static type with rectifiers to take AC from the output and convert to DC.

That should enable you to come back with more questions (and maybe some pictures)
 
H

hazeldel

Guest
Thanks Jim,
Ive seen some of your older postings as well.You sure know the insides of Generators.Im not at the site of the Generator but I will get some snap shots as well.All the output wires come off the top of the Generator through the top of the windings into a 120/208 to 240/408 switch box.So Im guessing it comes off the stationary outer windings (known as the stator?)Im going to have to look carefully tommorrow but I believe its 2 brushes on the smooth slip rings.If Im correct the commutator side (non smooth/slotted has 2 brushes with a total of four brushes.Im pretty sure the contenintal motor which was upgraded from 6 volt to 12 volt is charging seperatley from the Generator side.
No.2- I think your saying that the slip rings are some how supplying the DC current that the exciter needs.
No.3-If I have stationary field design how would the exciter fit in to this picture?It sounds like the slip rings could send AC output right to the Staionary field outer windings(stator?)Im probably as beginner as beginners get so Im going pretty slow.The exciter must be the spinning type that the brushes seem to be connected to.Cant see any further inside without pulling it further apart.The Generator has the L1 L2 and L3 connectors.Theirs also some sort of box with a board next to the top of the generator opposite the switch box I was telling you about.Let me know If Im even close on this.Im still wondering even though the brushes arent running smooth on the slip rings If I might still be able to flash the unit.Ive tried already but their may be something Im missing.
Thanks again Mark
 

Jim Rankin

Registered
Age
58
Stator-stationary windings and iron(normally produce the AC voltage, but could also be the field)

Rotor -rotating windings and iron. (normally the field of an AC generator, but could also produce AC output from the sliprings
(always produces DC voltage from a DC generator via the commutator and brushes)

Field-usually the rotor as in "rotating field generator", but could also be the stator of a "stationary field generator" The field creates a magnetic field that is cut by the coils of the AC producing part of the generator as one or the other is rotated by the power plant. The field uses a variable DC current to create the necessary magnetic field strength to make a certain voltage level of electrical output.

Exciter-powers the field and can be either
1-a rotating type that a-generates DC power like yours (with a commutator) and who's field is controled by the regulator or b-a permanent magnet generator (PMG) that creates AC output that can be rectified (converted to DC) and used to power the field through a regulator.
2-static exciter which rectifies some AC output from the main generator and feeds it back to power the field. The static exciter is also controled by the regulator.
3-"brushless" Brushless exciters replace the brushes and sliprings. A small stationary field is controlled by the regulator and creates AC power in a small rotor which is attached to the main generator field. This AC is rectified by diodes (now it's DC) and powers the field so no brushes and sliprings are needed.

Regulator-controls the field voltage to keep the voltage at setpoint even as the load (amperage or current) changes. Regulators sense output voltage and regulate some other component, so they use a small amount of power and deliver power to regulate output voltage.
It can act on the rotating DC exciter-generator field, on the static exciter switches, on the output of a PMG, or on a brushless exciter field.

It might be a good thing to determine why there is a wobble in the brushes and sliprings. If you have a bearing going out, or a bent shaft on the armature, you would want to fix that before the whole thing comes apart. If there is just uneven wear on the sliprings, they can sometimes be trued up on a lathe or replaced. Is the wobble from side to side and the brush track just isn't centered in the face of the slip ring all the way around, or do the brushes move in and out of the guides as the slip ring rotates beneath them?
 

K D Redd

In Memory Of
How many slip rings? If there are three it is a stationary field type. I have two 5 KW Winco's with commutator and thyree slip rings.

Kent
 
H

hazeldel

Guest
Ive got the 2 slip rings and a brush on each slip ring and 2 brushes running on the commutator side.Ive been trying to load pictures but the dialup wont allow it.I wont have DSL acsess until Wed.Jim has been a big help so far.Right next to the commutator ring opposite the generator at the very end of the unit has another rotator that lookes like the commutator ring in cased in small windings with what looks to be possible flat brushes.Does anybody know what the function is here?Theirs 4 wires evenly spaced around it.The surface is in bad shape.Im in the process of removing the end caseing to clean the surface and connectors.It definitley is inner connected to the slip rings and brushes.Mark
 

Jim Rankin

Registered
Age
58
So to confirm, 2 sliprings and 2 commutators (1 larger and 1 smaller on the end of the shaft) each with brushes?

If so, it would seem that there's 2 DC sections there that could either motor to start the engine or generate to supply the field or charge the battery. Maybe the larger one is the motor. The smaller is to supply the field since it is connected to the slipring brushes. Many of the older sets with a rotating exciter use the same unit to do both, but apparently yours doesn't.

Cleaning up the smaller commutator and brushes sounds like a good plan. Can you crank the engine over?
 
H

hazeldel

Guest
Yes ,
The engine had some frozen valves when I picked it up but is running now.I forgot to mention the brushes were moving in and out of the guides instead of side ways on the slip rings.Im really
not sure if the end of the generator shaft would be a 2nd commutator.The brushes really look more like pads.Their very flat.My idea of how this works may turn out differently when I get the cover off today.It looks like the motors charging system is seperate from the Generator although sombody converted the motors generator over to a alternator.Im leaving that alone for now.Im not sure how 12 volts would effect some of the components such as the starter solenoid the magneto points and condenser or panel gauges for that matter.Theirs a switch to cut any power from the motor battery back to the panel after you start it.Im not even sure If its nessary or not.Also when I first opened the cover to the slip rings sombody had the slip ring brushes screwed down with the commutator brushes on the commutator side.That didnt seem right to me.Mark
 
H

hazeldel

Guest
I pulled the front cover.The thin wafers that I could see are insulation paper.I guess it is more of a miniature generator setup.It seems closer to the inside of the generator.It has 4 seperate wraped windings above each metal conducter.These conducters are curved and rotate around the inner armature.The armature is about 6 inches across.Bad news is the wobble has caused wearage on both the armature and the 4 conducters as well.Looks like the leads make their way back to the voltage regulator.The front main shaft bearing appears bad.Im going to have to pull the main generator out and hope its not scraping on the inside like the smaller armature.Any Ideas on If these parts can be resurfaced and what the cost may be?Thanks Mark
 
H

hazeldel

Guest
Just figured out that its the exciter.The lamination or orange paint is worn away and the groves are smoothed down on the on the metal wedges and armature.sombody said it would still work as long as their was the proper distance between the wedges and the armature with no scraping?
 

Jim Rankin

Registered
Age
58
Before you put too much into it, I would carefully draw a diagram of how all the wires connect to everything and then isolate the windings of the small exciter generator and check for continuity with a test light setup or ohm through them with an ohmeter. You will want to check for grounded windings as well as broken windings. When the rotor has scraped on the stator, it can sometimes cause the steel laminations to damage the insulating enamel on the coils and short them to ground or to each other. If this checks out ok, then it would be worth a try to repair.

I am assuming you are talking about a bearing that is on the end of the generator opposite from the engine. Most generators have only one bearing on the end of the shaft and use the engine crankshaft to support the front end.
 
H

hazeldel

Guest
Hey Jim,
Looks like your up early Am.I can get around the old motors ok but you can probably see how new the generator thing is to me now.So far it seems to be the front bearing.Theirs play in the shaft but its still hard to Isolate the noise.Ive removed the exciter from the shaft and will check for continuity today.I guess I should do the same with the Generator.Havent looked inside yet.Are the 4 steel curved wedges referred to as the stator for the exciter?Could a person get away with repaintng the metal with the conductive coating paint and using as is If the windings all checked out.I realize of coarse their may be a balancing issue after the scraping of the exciter. Mark
 

Jim Rankin

Registered
Age
58
Wedges? Are they pole shoes? Curved to fit the rotor inside, sort of shaped like a mushroom and wound with stator coils around the bases? If so, these concentrate the magnetic field created by the coils around the bases and help it cross the airgap between the shoe and the armature.

Paint only to prevent rusting. The iron usually gets coated with whatever is used to consolidate and protect the windings and unless the coating interfers with clearances somewhere, it is left on, but is not important to the functioning of the generator. If there are places where it 's too thick for some tight fitting assembly, it is brushed/ground off.

Could you have a coupling between the generator shaft and the engine that has come loose? Like I said earlier, very few generators have 2 bearings, so if it is on the end next to the engine, probably you are feeling slack in a coupling or in the rear main bearing on the engine.
 
H

hazeldel

Guest
I dont think so.Ive removed the Generator housing from the armatureThe armatue is still attached to the back side of the engine.Cant feel any play in the shaft at this point.Notice alot of wear on front shaft sleeve.The shaft has a sleeve that the bearing rides on.Ive got 10 to 12 pictures Im going to try to post tonight.This is starting to get interesting.Now I can put a name to those metal wedges Thanks Mark
 
H

hazeldel

Guest
Hey Jim,
hope you get a chance to look at these photos.The bearing sleeve seems to be part of the armature assembly.I dont think I can get parts anymore.Any suggestions on what I might be able to do for replacements?Also the exciter windings checked good.Didt do any wire to ground checks though.It looks pretty tricky on testing the armature coils or the outer housing coil windings.Youll need to cut and paste theirs 15 photos.
http://good-times.webshots.com/album/562164076QIyINr please let me know If theirs any trouble with it.Thanks Mark
 

Jim Rankin

Registered
Age
58
Looks to me like you need to remove the rotor and take it to a machine shop so they can repair it for you. Also take the sliprings/commutator section at the same time.

If they can repair the shaft so it holds a bearing properly, then they can also reinstall the sliprings/commutator assembly and turn them back perfectly round and polish them for you.

There are several of techniques to repair the worn section, but anything involving heat might be a problem. You would pull the wires up out of the keyway and perhaps put a shield against the field windings to protect them as the shaft was built up on with metal spray, welding or brazing. Or perhaps the best way would be to turn the shaft down for a smaller bore bearing that has the same outside diameter as the original. Maybe also could use a sleeve after turning the bearing down. Either of these latter approaches would encroach upon the keyway depth so it might be a problem getting the wires back through. A good machinist will be able to tell you the best option and perhaps suggest something I haven't thought of.

The exciter is baffling me. Why would you design a machine with sliprings and also what looks like a brushless exciter?

Don't the two wires in the keyway of the shaft connect to the rotor of the exciter on the end of the shaft? What do the other ends connect to? sliprings? main generator field?
 

Jim Rankin

Registered
Age
58
I had another idea about the repairs. If you can find a new bearing with a wide innner ring that sticks out on either side of the seal/shields so it will bear on the unworn shaft on either side of the groove, you can use a metal filled epoxy like JB Weld or Devcon to mount it to the shaft and it should do the job. The only thing you will have to watch out for is that the bearing doesn't bottom out in the socket of the end bell when you assemble the generator. The rotor shaft will grow slightly longer as the generator comes up to temperature and the expansion has to have some where to go. So the bearing clearances and the outer ring slipping in the housing bore have to allow the growth.

Wide inner ring bearings are available in two types that I know of. There are some with the inner ring slightly wider than standard so it sticks out on either side of the bearing seals. Others have a locking collar or setscrews that work on an extension of the inner race that sticks out on only one side.
 
H

hazeldel

Guest
That sounds like a good Idea.I know Im going to have to replace the bearing anyway.That would probably work.Those 2 wires coming out the shaft were attached to the slip ring brushes.Their was only 1 exciter wire attached to the brushes from the other end and indirectly lead back to the voltage regulator.You can see the exciter still attached in one picture but its hard to tell.I think I might have mentioned some posts back somebody had the slip ring brush wires screwed down on the commutator side with those brushes.Basicly jumpering slip ring brushes together with commutator brushes.It looks like they took 2 of the wires coming off the panel and exciter that connected down on the slip ring or commutator at one time and tied them together back to the panel.Im going to have to start from the very begining after I get the mechanical side straightened out.Theirs 2 other things about the main rotor.I noticed a shim or lock key looks like its holding it on the shaft.Im not sure theirs any easy way to remove it from the engine.Theirs 15 to 20 bolts that seem to hold it to the motor Bell housing.It almost seems like I would end up leaving the shaft behind If I remove that key on the rotor.Also this may be an important clue.That bearing sleeve in the picture is worn unevenly.Could this mean a balancing problem.I thought about running it with the rotor on the shaft but I dont want anything coming apart. Mark
 

Jim Rankin

Registered
Age
58
Nothing to do about the balancing until you get the shaft repaired. It would certainly require removal of the armature from the engine. There's places that can do it, I wouldn't know where though. Maybe best to hope it isn't too bad or that the scraping has balanced it out.
 
H

hazeldel

Guest
Not sure If I will need to repost new but will give this a try with old posting.Im trying to find out what a good Mega ohm reading would be from the windings to ground.Their may be some moisture build up in the windings from sitting for so many years.
 
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