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detergent vs. non-detergent for two cycle
- Thread starter Mike S
- Start date
S
Sky
Guest
Non detergent oil is a no no, high detergent like quaker state HD 30 (CAN) be used for mixing the certain gas mixture for a 2 cycle engine but the special blend of 2 cycle oil that can be baught at a auto parts store or lawn mower place is better or may i say, highly recomended other than the make shift way of using standard HD 30 or HD 10 W 30 engine oil. why is becouse your normal HD (high detergent) engine oil is not made to burn though it happens like that alot of the time with engines but it does produce and can produce alot of carbon build up in the cumbustion chamber, also fouling out your spark plug if the engine keeps burning oil, normally in an old 4 stroke engine that would be becouse of bad piston rings and or valve guides. with a 2 stroke, or 2 cycle, the special blend of 2 cycle oil that is available is ment to burn, it is formulated JUST FOR the 2 cycle engine, becouse that is it's way (ofcource) of cooling it's self. now i honestly dont know what special mixtures are in 2 cycle oil that are not in regular engine oil but it is simply just becouse 2 cycle oil is ment to burn, and provides the extra lubrication required in a 2 cycle engine that regular 4 cycle engine oil does not.
now non detergent oil is a no no in a 4 stroke or 2 stroke engine, though your non detergent oil is sometimes used in 4 cycles, it's really not recomended, expecially definitly not in a 4 stroke, becouse non detergent oil does not have the properties in it too clean the internals of an engine, high detergent oil is ment for 4 stroke engines and sometimes used in 2 strokes even though not recomended, even engine manuals will tell you that, just becouse high detergent oil contains the properties in it to clean the inside of a 4 stroke, thats why when you drain 4 stroke oil, it is black or dark brown. it basically washes the inside of your engine, cooling it at the same time, non detergent just cools, it dont clean like detergent oil. and a clean engine is the life of an engine, take that a way, and you wont have an engine for long. though you dont drain your oil in a 2 stroke, ofcource, you just cool the engine and burn the oil. non detergent is not meant for a 2 cycle and is really not recomended for a 4 cycle. non detergent oil is more for the use of pressure washer pumps or external bearings or tool work and such. high detergent oil for 4 cycle engines is meant expecially for the 4 stroke engine but rather not recomended for the 2 stroke though it can be used, it will foul your plugs becouse like said above, 4 stroke oil is not meant to burn, thats were your 2 stroke oil comes in becouse it is meant just for the 2 stroke, meant to burn and meat the requirements of a 2 stroke engine.
Sky
now non detergent oil is a no no in a 4 stroke or 2 stroke engine, though your non detergent oil is sometimes used in 4 cycles, it's really not recomended, expecially definitly not in a 4 stroke, becouse non detergent oil does not have the properties in it too clean the internals of an engine, high detergent oil is ment for 4 stroke engines and sometimes used in 2 strokes even though not recomended, even engine manuals will tell you that, just becouse high detergent oil contains the properties in it to clean the inside of a 4 stroke, thats why when you drain 4 stroke oil, it is black or dark brown. it basically washes the inside of your engine, cooling it at the same time, non detergent just cools, it dont clean like detergent oil. and a clean engine is the life of an engine, take that a way, and you wont have an engine for long. though you dont drain your oil in a 2 stroke, ofcource, you just cool the engine and burn the oil. non detergent is not meant for a 2 cycle and is really not recomended for a 4 cycle. non detergent oil is more for the use of pressure washer pumps or external bearings or tool work and such. high detergent oil for 4 cycle engines is meant expecially for the 4 stroke engine but rather not recomended for the 2 stroke though it can be used, it will foul your plugs becouse like said above, 4 stroke oil is not meant to burn, thats were your 2 stroke oil comes in becouse it is meant just for the 2 stroke, meant to burn and meat the requirements of a 2 stroke engine.
Sky
S
Sky
Guest
and i would like to explain to, for instance, the diference in cleaning properties of detergent oil and non-detergent oil.
this is just for instance but, a while back when portland had there fall swap meet, there first fall swap meet, i baught a 6s Briggs to restore for my mini bike that im restoring, when i first went to buy it, it had spark, had very good compression, so i gave 20 buck for it and i was happy, i got it home, drained the old oil, probably non detergent what was in it, i put the high detergent oil or HD 30 oil in it, fired it up and it run like a sewing machine, few days later after starting it every once in a while becouse i like to hear those 6s's run, it started to smoke, pretty soon it was smoking like a chemeny, and loosing compression, but i let it run anyway, few minutes later i shut it off, sat it on the bench for restoration, then walked away, next day, the little 6's didn't have compression at all and the oil was black, i couldnt even get a pop out of the engine, so then i restored it, i have yet to start it up again with the new rings and oil, but my point is that, what the HD (high detergent) oil did was clean the crud out of the engine and cleaned the piston ring area out pretty good too! no dirt, nothing to hold compression, the rings were shot, but the bearings were very good. thats what the detergent oil did with the engine, it cleaned it out, non detergent dont do that, thats why when i baught it, it had good compression and it didn't smoke at that time till i switched oil. like earlyer i said non detergent oil CAN be used in a 4 stroke, matter fact, thats what they ran along time ago, but the oil along time ago was not as advanced as it is today, helping engines a tremendus amount. thats why detergent oil is more recomended today, for 4 stroke engines than non detergent, is becouse detergent oil will not only help cool the engine, but clean it aswell, getting the harmfull dirt and sludge out of the engine, wich makes your engine last longer, and thats the key, a clean engine is a long lasting good engine, a dirty engine.....well.....not so much, thats why they had to rebuild engines more back then, simply becouse oil was not as good as todays oil, oil has indeed come along way. but i will say back then it did performe it's job though, it did atleast cool the engine, but you would also find sludge in the oil pan too! thats something today's oil, takes care of.
Sorry for writing a book here, but i like to explain things clearly.
this is just for instance but, a while back when portland had there fall swap meet, there first fall swap meet, i baught a 6s Briggs to restore for my mini bike that im restoring, when i first went to buy it, it had spark, had very good compression, so i gave 20 buck for it and i was happy, i got it home, drained the old oil, probably non detergent what was in it, i put the high detergent oil or HD 30 oil in it, fired it up and it run like a sewing machine, few days later after starting it every once in a while becouse i like to hear those 6s's run, it started to smoke, pretty soon it was smoking like a chemeny, and loosing compression, but i let it run anyway, few minutes later i shut it off, sat it on the bench for restoration, then walked away, next day, the little 6's didn't have compression at all and the oil was black, i couldnt even get a pop out of the engine, so then i restored it, i have yet to start it up again with the new rings and oil, but my point is that, what the HD (high detergent) oil did was clean the crud out of the engine and cleaned the piston ring area out pretty good too! no dirt, nothing to hold compression, the rings were shot, but the bearings were very good. thats what the detergent oil did with the engine, it cleaned it out, non detergent dont do that, thats why when i baught it, it had good compression and it didn't smoke at that time till i switched oil. like earlyer i said non detergent oil CAN be used in a 4 stroke, matter fact, thats what they ran along time ago, but the oil along time ago was not as advanced as it is today, helping engines a tremendus amount. thats why detergent oil is more recomended today, for 4 stroke engines than non detergent, is becouse detergent oil will not only help cool the engine, but clean it aswell, getting the harmfull dirt and sludge out of the engine, wich makes your engine last longer, and thats the key, a clean engine is a long lasting good engine, a dirty engine.....well.....not so much, thats why they had to rebuild engines more back then, simply becouse oil was not as good as todays oil, oil has indeed come along way. but i will say back then it did performe it's job though, it did atleast cool the engine, but you would also find sludge in the oil pan too! thats something today's oil, takes care of.
Sorry for writing a book here, but i like to explain things clearly.
Mike S
Registered
- Age
- 39
I guess I should have done a search.
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23278&highlight=maytag+oil
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23278&highlight=maytag+oil
Andrew Mackey
Moderator
- Last Subscription Date
- 05/14/2017
Look for my earlier posts on 2 cycle oiling, especially on older cast iron engines like the maytags and early jacobsen 2 stroke engines. Most manufacturers specified what oul to use on their engines. When a manufacturer notes NON Detergent, it is for a reason. Detergent oil is not meant to be burnt. Besides leaving soft carbon, as all oils will do, it leaves corrosive compounds in the combustion chamber, as well as hard carbon and chemical deposits that will cause piston scuffing and cylender wear, as well as detonation due to hot spots within this hardened debris.
Non detergent oils will leave soft carbon deposits, that will not cause damage, and will be easily removed. NOTE: some manufacturers also call for a heavier weight Non Detergent oil - Fairmont calls for SAE 40, a Sears Allstate 250 premix called for SAE 50. The Charter-Mietz I just finished, calls for SAE 50 as well. Maytag calls for SAE 30 - mineral oil, the closest I have seen to the factory oil was Pennsoil.
The new 2 cycle lubricants - especially the ones that say they will work in all engines, but mixed at 1 ratio, are made for high speed (16000 RPM +), hardened designed engines (chromed cylenders, moly rings, ball or roller bearings thruought). These lubricants do burn completely. BUT they are not designed to be used with the slower (less than 2000 RPM), 'soft (cast iron piston, or soft aluminum [not the hard alloy stuff used in todays modern engines]), with plain bronze rods and main bearings. The new lubes are cut with mineral oil - to help them disolve in the gas. this also does away with the 'stickyness' of regular oil, and does not let the oil stay on interior engine surfaces. There have been many posts on 2 cycle oils, here on the Stak. Look 'em up and read carefully, before you decide what to put in your engine.
Modern lubricants are for modern engines. Modern engines are designed with 'Programmed Obsolescense' in mind. Usual lifetime - 2 to 3 years. If you read most manufacturers warrentees, 60 to 90 days if used commercially ( and in the case of some Sears equipment - NO warrenty, if used commercially)!
How many modern 2 stroke engines do you thing will be around in 50 to 100 years The old engines have run just fine for their first 50 to 100, on plain Non Detergent, there is no reason to make them not be around if you keep using it.
Oils, although they leave deposits, are for older 2 cycle engines
As for 4 stroke engines, to put detergent oil in a 4 stroke engine, that has been run with non detergent oils, is to court disaster. The purpose of detergent in oil is to loosen deposits within the engine, and put them in suspension in the oil, to be removed by the oil filter. Unfortunately, most early engines (and still today, most smaller air cooled engines), do not have oil filters. As the detergent loosens deposits in the engine, and puts it in to suspension, on older engines with poured bearings, and also most insert bearinged engines, this now gritty mixtuer will accellerate bearing wear, as well as plug oil passages within the block. On 2 cycle engines, besides the top end problems discussed earlier, the deposits within the crankcase are now loosened up, and are blown onto the piston, and get wedged between the piston and cylender wall, where the poston meets the port edges. This will cause piston melt down and cylender port damage as well.
A Lister diesel that my local engine club owns, clearly states in the owners manual "If detergent oil is to be used in this engine, after more than 50 hours of use with NON Detergent oil, the engine shall be utterly, and completely be dis-assembled, and thoroughly cleaned of all deposits and oil. All internal passsages are to be thoroughly washed with clean Kreosene Distillate, and blown out with clean air until nothing remains. The engine is to be re-assembled using SAE 20 oil on all surfaces, the oil pump primed, and readied for service. After assembly, Fill the crankcase with detergent oil as recomended for temperate conditions. It is recomended that the engine be turned for 2 minutes, with no compression, in order to prime all oil passeges with oil, before starting the engine."
When in doubt as to previous engine oiling, use the non detergent, unless you plan a rebuild.
Andrew
Non detergent oils will leave soft carbon deposits, that will not cause damage, and will be easily removed. NOTE: some manufacturers also call for a heavier weight Non Detergent oil - Fairmont calls for SAE 40, a Sears Allstate 250 premix called for SAE 50. The Charter-Mietz I just finished, calls for SAE 50 as well. Maytag calls for SAE 30 - mineral oil, the closest I have seen to the factory oil was Pennsoil.
The new 2 cycle lubricants - especially the ones that say they will work in all engines, but mixed at 1 ratio, are made for high speed (16000 RPM +), hardened designed engines (chromed cylenders, moly rings, ball or roller bearings thruought). These lubricants do burn completely. BUT they are not designed to be used with the slower (less than 2000 RPM), 'soft (cast iron piston, or soft aluminum [not the hard alloy stuff used in todays modern engines]), with plain bronze rods and main bearings. The new lubes are cut with mineral oil - to help them disolve in the gas. this also does away with the 'stickyness' of regular oil, and does not let the oil stay on interior engine surfaces. There have been many posts on 2 cycle oils, here on the Stak. Look 'em up and read carefully, before you decide what to put in your engine.
Modern lubricants are for modern engines. Modern engines are designed with 'Programmed Obsolescense' in mind. Usual lifetime - 2 to 3 years. If you read most manufacturers warrentees, 60 to 90 days if used commercially ( and in the case of some Sears equipment - NO warrenty, if used commercially)!
How many modern 2 stroke engines do you thing will be around in 50 to 100 years
The old engines have run just fine for their first 50 to 100, on plain Non Detergent, there is no reason to make them not be around if you keep using it.Oils, although they leave deposits, are for older 2 cycle engines
As for 4 stroke engines, to put detergent oil in a 4 stroke engine, that has been run with non detergent oils, is to court disaster. The purpose of detergent in oil is to loosen deposits within the engine, and put them in suspension in the oil, to be removed by the oil filter. Unfortunately, most early engines (and still today, most smaller air cooled engines), do not have oil filters. As the detergent loosens deposits in the engine, and puts it in to suspension, on older engines with poured bearings, and also most insert bearinged engines, this now gritty mixtuer will accellerate bearing wear, as well as plug oil passages within the block. On 2 cycle engines, besides the top end problems discussed earlier, the deposits within the crankcase are now loosened up, and are blown onto the piston, and get wedged between the piston and cylender wall, where the poston meets the port edges. This will cause piston melt down and cylender port damage as well.
A Lister diesel that my local engine club owns, clearly states in the owners manual "If detergent oil is to be used in this engine, after more than 50 hours of use with NON Detergent oil, the engine shall be utterly, and completely be dis-assembled, and thoroughly cleaned of all deposits and oil. All internal passsages are to be thoroughly washed with clean Kreosene Distillate, and blown out with clean air until nothing remains. The engine is to be re-assembled using SAE 20 oil on all surfaces, the oil pump primed, and readied for service. After assembly, Fill the crankcase with detergent oil as recomended for temperate conditions. It is recomended that the engine be turned for 2 minutes, with no compression, in order to prime all oil passeges with oil, before starting the engine."
When in doubt as to previous engine oiling, use the non detergent, unless you plan a rebuild.
Andrew
