Universal Mod D Generator

[Harvey Teal]

Do any of you guys have a schematic, or maybe a manual, for a Universal Model D 3KW generator, circa 1918? Also who can do a good job of re-varnishing & baking the windings? This unit appears to be in good condition but the wrapping is dried out and cracked, and I don't want to risk damaging anything when I run the engine. It hasn't been run since the 20's...Thanks, Harvey

 

[Bill Garman]

McMaster Carr catalog has an very good motor winding varnish (item# 7437K16 ) in a 12 oz. spray can for around $5.oo that you can put on youyrself. phone# (630)833-0300

 

[Franz]

Spray varnish may not be the way you want to go with this project. Originally, the machine was soaked in a tank of varnish for several hours, then drip dried, and then baked for final drying. Motor rewind shops still do it that way. The varnish needs to penetrate the open spaces to be most effective and adhere all winding parts together. Spray varnish is intended for touchup purposes only.

 

[Harry]

Why varnish instead of shellac?

 

[Harvey Teal]

Thanks, guys. I'm assuming that the original wire was covered with either a cotton wrap or varnish, shellac, etc and that the insulation is still intact. The coils are covered with what appears to be cloth tape. I haven't removed any of the covering. Should the whole coil assemblies be soaked and baked as is? Or is it best to rewind the coils with newer wire?

 

[Franz]

Harvey, since you say it appears to be in decent condition, physicly, the simplest and best thing to do as a first step would be to meg it. That simple test would tell you if you have to rewind, or varnish. My feeling is that I'd do everything possible to save the original windings before I'd consdider rewinding. A machine originally wound with cotton covered wire would definitely have different characteristics when rewound with varnished wire.

Harry, I don't know why varnish instead of shelac, but I sure soaked enough of them in the tank back when I was a 17 year old apprentice. If memory serves, there is some good information on the subject in Audells, vol 9 or 10 in the set I have. There is currently epoxy technology using a single component epoxy that I'm told doesn't require the baking step, but I don't have a source for that product immediately available. Motor rewinding is becoming a lost art in my part of the country.

 

[Don C. Wiley]

Well guys and gals; I have a 1500 watt air cooled Delco-Light generator I bought in 1991. It had the field housing removed and the wires "jerked" from the engine. The engine with the armature still attached had been sitting some place with the armature half buried in sand or dirt, for I don't know how long. I brought it home in the fall and checked with a ohm meter. It showed shorted to the shaft. I set it in my shop which was heated all winter and the next spring I checked with the ohm meter and by golly it showed open to the shaft.

My son said "that thing will never work". The strips of fiber that were between the armature segments were completely gone on the half that had been buried. I took all of the remainder pieces out and wire brushed the rust from the armature core, then sprayed all the windings with electric motor and brake cleaner. I took an air hose and blowed all the dirt and crud off of it. I had some Formica V32 laying around and I took it and made new pieces to slide in between the armature segments and put some "NOS" Super Glue on each one so they wouldn't slip out. I used a clear lacquer spray and sprayed all the windings with that, including the segmented core and Formica.

The field coil insulation was nearly all gone and I took them out of the housing and took all the old wrap off and replaced it with friction tape (still available in most electric departments). My HWI man says that gardeners still use it to wrap their hoe and shovel handles with. I just sprayed the field coils with the electric motor and brake clean after I had the old tape off and blew them dry with the air hose.

I have been taking this generator to shows and running it since 1992 and it is still working. I guess what I did isn't recommended by the experts, but it worked for me. I wouldn't recommend doing what I did if you were going to depend on it to supply your house with power.

"DELCO DON"

 

[shermwolf]

Harry Varnish is prefered because it in more inert to to most solvents and H2O after it dries. Shellac on the other hand is attacked by alcohol, water, gasoline, etc. It also softens at tempertures well below what modern magnet wire will tolerate. This softening allows motion in the windings when the motor heats and cools and can cause winding failure.

 

[Franz]

Don, Formica is very close to the "fish paper" coil shims that are used to hold winding segments in place when motors/generators are wound or rewound. The way the old timers taught me, the shims were actually driven into place with a rawhide mallet, so the coild didn't move before the unit was dipped in the varnish tank. That was in the day of varnished wire, and I think I'd want to use a little less shimming if I were dealing with cotton wound magnet wire. The tape that is used is "varnished cambric", and it is still made and used in both motor work and electronics. There is also a sticky faced paper tape that is used to hold individual coils before they are taken off the winding machine.

 

[Kid Dynamo]

Your use of formica as insulator strips reminds me of a friend's tour of a formica manufacturing plant where he was told that the name "Formica" derived from one of the substance's original design uses: a replacement material for mica used as an insulator. John

 

[Don C. Wiley]

I had to get me a new computer because my last one was three years old and the warrenty had just run out. It just quit doing any thing I wanted it to. I spent six days with the "tech" support folks and that was from one hour to two and a half hours each day and they/we couldn't get it back up and running. They offered me $75.00 for it on a trade in and I said no thanks I'll sell it to my grand kids for that and that's just what I did.

I also had to get a new FTP service. I just wandered if the picture of my 15C3 Delco-Light plant is visable to you folks? I can see it but it might be in my (hard drive,soft drive, muddy thing or something). I'm definately not a computer "geek". If it weren't for the grand sons I'd be lost.

Thanks. "DELCO DON"

 

[Harvey Teal]

Re: Universal Mod D Generator *NM*

 

[Harvey Teal]

Ooops! Don, your Delco-Light picture looks great. I had one of those units when I was a kid. Sold it for fifteen bucks so I could take my girlfriend on a date. She dumped me.

 

[Franz]

Thereby proving once again, Generators is better than wimmen! Generator + gas = GOOD Woman + gas = BAD

 

[Gus Simms]

Harvey, any competent motor shop can do the job, all you have to do is drop enough Jeffersons or Hamiltons or maybe Grants on the counter. Question is does it need it. I'm in agreement with Don, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Almost all of my seventy plus plants work, two or three burned out internally. Mostly the problems they have are quite easy to fix. I recently got an estimate to rewind my big Lister, "$800 or so" the guy told me, "Correct the grounded winding, put it back together and see if it works, at the worst it will still need to be rewound". I took his advice, and have it all back together, it motors well, and I am going to start it as soon as I get my hands on a couple of replacement springs for the engine coupling. I have a mod D, SN 1491, runs very well I might add.

 

[Harvey Teal]

Good looking generator, Gus.....hey, maybe mine isn't a model D after all......mine has the same engine and dynamo, but the radiator is mounted above the starting crank end of the engine, and the control panel is mounted above the dynamo. The radiator has a triangular top tank with a model T radiator cap. The original guts for the control panel are missing, and I'm trying to figure out how to reconstruct a new panel. Truth is, I bought this plant to drive a mechanical line shaft in my shop, since there is a lovely little flat pulley outboard of the dynamo. But the whole thing is in such good shape that I just didn't have the heart to run it that way. The commutator is in mint condition, and there are no shorts in any of the windings. I really want to hear the engine run but I don't want to lose the dynamo in my moment of passion. By the way, I manufacture a line of Teflon/fiberglass sheets and tapes that have exceptional dielectric properties, 1000 volts/mil or better, that were originally designed to replace the old varnished paper and cloth tape. It might be heresy to redo a vintage machine with this stuff, but GE Electromotive buys a lot of it. If any of you guys want to play with some of this stuff, I'd be happy to send you a few rolls...... Harvey

 

[Franz]

Harvey, I sure don't want you to be a herotic, so, if 3/8, might be 1/2" wide varnished cambric tape would help you. I think I have some. I just might be getting my hands on more at the end of the month with a little luck. Teflon fibergalss is a totally new thing to me, is this a fiberglass tape that has been impregnated with teflon? Knowin Gus, he probably has detailed photos of the control box, and a wiring diagram as well. I ain't sure where he stashes all his toys, but I have a hunch he's sinkin a mine shaft under his shop for extra storage.

 

[Gus Simms]

No way Franz, had to abort the tunnel mission, the little woman couldn't figure out where all the new dirt was coming from, had to put it all back, she thinks. Harvey, I scanned a page from Alan King's farm plant book. Which shows a couple of 4 cyl. models. There is one more shown on the previous page, but it has the panel and radiator on the generator end. Doesn't designate them by letters, only output. I'm trying to work on a deal with a guy who has one similar to the one on the top left, but his tunnel must have collapsed as I can't get in touch with him. If we ever make contact, I will get you details on the panel. Check out the link for an interesting history of the Universal.


http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/Atomic_4_Eng_Service/index.htm

 

[Franz]

Gus, I know dang good and well I meticulously explained raised bed gardens to you when you were here last year, ya just gotta trick wives, especially ones from Pensyltucky. Did I forget to mention tunnel shoring to you? Might have just figured a carpenter would know about that.

 

[Harvey Teal]

Shoot, I'm all confused now...my unit desn't look like any of those fine pictures, and my significant other is swondering why I'm spending so much time with this stuff...hey Franz, you got any manuals on tunnel design?? Harvey